April 13, 2025

Ancestors or Tricksters? Understanding the Unquiet Voices w/Nonie and Rob Douglas

Ancestors or Tricksters? Understanding the Unquiet Voices w/Nonie and Rob Douglas
Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
Amazon Music podcast player badge
Castbox podcast player badge
Deezer podcast player badge
Podcast Addict podcast player badge
Podchaser podcast player badge
JioSaavn podcast player badge
Spreaker podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconRSS Feed podcast player iconAmazon Music podcast player iconCastbox podcast player iconDeezer podcast player iconPodcast Addict podcast player iconPodchaser podcast player iconJioSaavn podcast player iconSpreaker podcast player icon

In this episode, we’re joined by Rob and Nonie Douglas, authors of Unquiet Voices, a fascinating guide that blends classical necromancy with modern paranormal investigation. We explore the intersections of medieval magic and contemporary ghost hunting, dispel common misconceptions about spirits, and learn practical tools for navigating encounters with the unquiet voices that surround us. Whether you're a seasoned investigator or a curious newcomer, this conversation will challenge what you think you know about the dead—and the living who seek them.

About Guests:
Rob and Nonie Douglas have been studying the esoteric arts together for more than thirty years.


Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/paratruth-reborn--6273542/support.

Thanks for listening!

WEBVTT

1
00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:06.440
Welcome. Well, well do Para Truth.

2
00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:36.840
Truth What's going on? Peara Truthers, Welcome to another episode

3
00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:40.520
of Paratruth Radio. My name is Justin and I'm Eric.

4
00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:45.280
And tonight we are bringing on Rob and Nonnie Douglas

5
00:00:45.320 --> 00:00:49.759
to talk about their book Unquiet Voices, The Magical Art

6
00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:55.280
of Laying Ghosts. This will be an interesting conversation. Rob

7
00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:59.280
and Nonie have been studying the esoteric arts together for

8
00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:03.759
more than thirty years. And without further ado, let's bring

9
00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:12.239
in Rob and Noni. Rob and NONI, welcome to Paratruth Reborn.

10
00:01:12.280 --> 00:01:15.239
How are you all. We're doing fine. Thank you great

11
00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:15.719
to be here.

12
00:01:16.120 --> 00:01:17.200
Yeah, thanks go Hovings.

13
00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:20.079
It's glad to finally get you od we you know,

14
00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:20.879
we were struggling.

15
00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:27.920
Yeare tons of term So something that we usually ask

16
00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:33.840
everybody is how did you get into the all things

17
00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:34.879
strange and unusual?

18
00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:39.200
It really started with me. I grew up in a

19
00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:41.879
very traditional family and always wanted to get involved in

20
00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:45.599
spirituality and magic and eventually got into it when I

21
00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:51.239
was eighteen years old. And from there people were interested in,

22
00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:54.519
you know, what's going on in their homes when things

23
00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:57.120
started to go bump in the night and so you know,

24
00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:01.319
they came to someone they thought knew about it. Okay.

25
00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:05.159
Yeah, And for me, I met Rob when I was

26
00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:08.120
twenty one. We've been together ever since. So we've been

27
00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:11.840
together for thirty years working on this kind of thing.

28
00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:15.240
It's you know, ghosts and spirits and that sort of

29
00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:18.240
thing is really part and parcel of a study of

30
00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:21.080
magic and the occult. It's not necessarily our direct and

31
00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:25.680
only interest, but it definitely is something that sort of

32
00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:27.280
captured local interests.

33
00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.159
It's one of those practices that's immediate. You know, there's

34
00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:33.759
a lot of philosophy, a lot of individual practice in

35
00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:39.360
esoteric systems, but when someone faces something that's immediate in

36
00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:41.680
their life, this is the type of thing that you

37
00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:48.680
can engage in and it's right there. It's incredibly practical,

38
00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:50.199
I hope.

39
00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.520
Well, Now, for listeners who are unfamiliar with your book,

40
00:02:56.599 --> 00:03:00.080
what does the title Unquiet Voices actually signify?

41
00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:07.919
Primarily that not all people who are deceased are ghosts? Okay,

42
00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.520
Ghosts tend to be those spirits that are stuck in

43
00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:17.080
between because of their attachments, so and they often reach

44
00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.400
out to try to communicate to us. So Unquiet Voices

45
00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:27.240
indicates that these souls that are that are bound by

46
00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:30.759
their own attachments are reaching out and they're around us

47
00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:33.199
all the time, and if we just take a moment

48
00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:36.719
to listen, we'll find them and be able to help them.

49
00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:39.599
It's also a general term for just restless spirits, those

50
00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:43.159
spirits who are just not satisfied where they are, or

51
00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:46.199
they can't move on, or they sort of somewhere in between.

52
00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:52.319
Okay, now, can you tell us a little bit why

53
00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:54.120
you guys decided to write the book.

54
00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:58.400
Oh, actually, we did a presentation at an event and

55
00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:02.759
it was incredibly popular, which surprised us, and it kind

56
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:05.280
of pulled us into the orbit of the publishers and

57
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:08.240
that sort of thing. We ended up in a discussion

58
00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:10.000
and we ended up writing the book. It was never

59
00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:13.080
our intention to write an esoteric book at all in

60
00:04:13.080 --> 00:04:15.360
our lives. We're in our fifties and so it's not

61
00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:17.480
really the time to start when you want to set

62
00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:21.759
up a career as a nest other writer, what kind

63
00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:23.160
of reluctant authors.

64
00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:28.079
Yeah, it really was something we felt needed to be said.

65
00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:30.639
There were enough, there was enough influence around us to

66
00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:32.600
sort of guide us towards this would be the right

67
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:36.639
thing for us to do. We've always been very It's

68
00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:38.879
something we've held close to our chest. It's not something

69
00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:43.600
we've ever really talked publicly about, and so putting it

70
00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.120
into words and sharing it was it was a bit

71
00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.120
of a leap of faith whether there would be interest

72
00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:50.480
in this, but we were sure that there was. The

73
00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:54.240
publishers approached us and it sort of went from there.

74
00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:58.879
Well, there's always interest. I think it's just narrowing it

75
00:04:58.959 --> 00:04:59.759
down for sure.

76
00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:05.319
Yeah, And I would say that we we have a

77
00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:09.000
very particular kind of approach where we're crossing the lines

78
00:05:09.079 --> 00:05:13.319
between occultism and paranormal investigation.

79
00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:19.120
We're not paranormal investigators ourselves, however, we've been present and

80
00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:23.079
invited to participate when things are a little bit beyond

81
00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:27.839
what a situation, when it might call for a little

82
00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:30.920
bit of specialized interest or expertise.

83
00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:34.120
Having said that, we did have done many, many of

84
00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:38.360
our own investigations in private homes and for people who

85
00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:43.040
are facing a spirit disturbance. But we have worked in

86
00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:47.160
the past with other paranormal investigators and seeing their methodology

87
00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:51.720
and had that team sort of dynamic.

88
00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:57.600
Okay, Well, now, so many people seem to believe that

89
00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:01.639
necromancy is kind of a negative term signifying raising the

90
00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:04.199
dead or having the dead do your bidding and things

91
00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:07.240
like that. Probably a lot of what movies kind of

92
00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:10.439
teach people. But what is your definition of necromancy and

93
00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:12.040
why should people not be afraid?

94
00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:17.639
Well, necromancy simply means the art of working with the dead. Essentially,

95
00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:23.560
mantia means like divination or mantic speaking. But the term

96
00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:27.120
came to me sort of like in general, a specific

97
00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:36.279
esoteric art. Necromancy got its bad name from the machinations

98
00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:40.519
of the medieval church, and it got confused with another word,

99
00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:43.800
which means the black arts, and the two words became synonymous,

100
00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:46.800
and so it was the blackest and darkest of all arts,

101
00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:50.560
when in actual fact they were totally separate systems. Uh.

102
00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:56.279
Necromancy can be misused like any other magical form. But

103
00:06:56.319 --> 00:07:02.639
when it comes necrovanci is divided into two branchesanci and neciomancy.

104
00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:06.399
All right. Neciomancy is where you're you're evoking spirits of

105
00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:10.199
the dead for various magical reasons. Skiomancy is when there's

106
00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:13.319
a disturbance and you go to the location and you

107
00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:19.360
resolve the disturbance. So h, the book's really about skiomancy neciomancy.

108
00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:22.959
The word necio is a latinization of an Old Greek

109
00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:26.319
word for the type of rituals when they were within

110
00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:29.879
a place that was a liminal place between the netherworld

111
00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:33.439
and our world, So in a temple called the necromantean

112
00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:38.600
in Epirus, or at a tomb, for instance, and there

113
00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:41.720
were a set of rituals that in Greek culture they performed,

114
00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:47.240
and it sort of bled into medieval magic from there.

115
00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:54.439
Now, if there are any cautions that you would give

116
00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.079
people considering to practice macromancy, what would they be.

117
00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:04.680
I'd say it has to be founded in compassion and

118
00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:09.759
respect for the living and the dead. My main caution

119
00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:14.000
would be, don't jump into deep too fast. There's a

120
00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:17.040
lot of things that can go wrong when you're practicing

121
00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:22.120
these arts. And the biggest rule of thumb would probably

122
00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:25.879
be be logical. When people talk about esotericism and magic,

123
00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:29.800
they think it's like the antithesis of logic, but the

124
00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:33.039
reality is it's not. You need to be able to

125
00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:38.440
define what is caused by physical events, what is caused

126
00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:43.720
by emotional and mental issues, and what's caused by potentially

127
00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:47.200
caused by a spirit. And you have to know have

128
00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:50.919
certainty in your knowledge base in what you're doing, and

129
00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:54.600
so if you're prone to flights of fancy, then it's

130
00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:57.039
probably not for you because that will lead you down

131
00:08:57.039 --> 00:08:58.240
a very dangerous path.

132
00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:03.080
Okay, So in terms of necromancy, I think another thing

133
00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:08.320
is just to kild yourself with information. It's a very

134
00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:11.399
misunderstood term when we use it. We really are talking

135
00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:16.559
about communication with the dead. Our particular strand of necromancy

136
00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:19.879
really comes from a cultural background in laying ghos, and

137
00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:25.039
so it's a service. It's not necessarily you know, it's

138
00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:29.720
not for entertainment. It's not for thrills. It's not for

139
00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.159
you know, the excitement and the adrenaline that some people

140
00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:37.679
get from it. For us, it means something where you

141
00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:41.399
are thinking, have a compassion approach and trying to resolve

142
00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:44.360
a situation which may involve the living and the dead

143
00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:47.519
and things just aren't going so well. You know, being

144
00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:49.960
able to get in the middle of that confrontation and

145
00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.559
resolve it in a way that creates a peaceful resolution

146
00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:57.120
is really the goal of what we're talking about a

147
00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.600
little bit different to what you find in popular.

148
00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:03.679
Media popular media. Popular media likes to focus on the

149
00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:07.440
imagery and it boosts certain people's ego, but that's not

150
00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:09.480
what we're promoting.

151
00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:12.960
Right, Yeah, I mean, I think that's where most people's

152
00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:14.960
knowledge of necromancy comes from.

153
00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:16.639
So totally get it.

154
00:10:19.159 --> 00:10:21.000
We're incredibly boring, normal people.

155
00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:25.840
Yeah, we just sort of happened to live with one

156
00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:28.320
foot in this world and one foot among the world

157
00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:29.879
of spirits and the dead. And I think a lot

158
00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:33.080
of people do, and a lot of people are open

159
00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.360
to the idea, But it doesn't necessarily mean that when

160
00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:38.960
things start to go awry, when it crosses over and

161
00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:42.159
it's unwelcome, people don't know how to handle it or

162
00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:45.519
what to do, and they sometimes can immediately think that

163
00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:49.480
there's potential for danger sometimes there is, but learning how

164
00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:53.559
to analyze that and how to have a way of

165
00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:56.000
approaching it and almost a bit of a formula how

166
00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.399
to identify it it. Is it a problem? Isn't it

167
00:10:58.399 --> 00:10:59.000
a problem?

168
00:10:59.200 --> 00:10:59.440
You know?

169
00:10:59.799 --> 00:11:02.440
How do we control the environment. We can't always control

170
00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:06.080
the spirit, we can't always control the situation, but there

171
00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:08.320
are things that we can control that mitigate it. And

172
00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:11.240
having a real understanding on how to navigate those unseen

173
00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:13.600
realms is really where our focus is.

174
00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:17.919
Okay, Okay, so that probably kind of lines up with

175
00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:22.440
my next question here, which is how does classical necromantic

176
00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.720
techniques complement or enhance modern paranormal investigation tools.

177
00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:29.440
I would say it's the other way around. There's so

178
00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:40.240
much experimentation and exploration and modern paranormal investigation, from the technology,

179
00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:46.440
to investigation techniques, to experiences that are recorded. A vast

180
00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:48.879
number of experiences that are recorded that can be analyzed.

181
00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:56.399
The old methods are based on their knowledge base and

182
00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:00.960
a rational means of investigation, but we can enhance all

183
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:02.519
of those old methods with a lot of the new

184
00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:06.399
methods when we test them and they become tried and true.

185
00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:11.159
For instance, everyone knows an EMP meter well, it helps.

186
00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:17.799
It helps to identify when there's em present, although to

187
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:20.799
be honest, if you have experience, you can pretty much

188
00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.440
sense that there's a EMAT presents immediately walking into a location.

189
00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:27.080
But that was just one example.

190
00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:31.080
Yeah, I would say that when necromancy crosses and supplies

191
00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:35.360
a good foundation and a basive knowledge for modern investigators

192
00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:39.720
is really in the classifications. I think that it's really

193
00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:45.039
fundamental knowledge. It's it's a set of classifications that has

194
00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:49.360
been agreed upon and observed and worked for, you know,

195
00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:55.200
over two thousand years of recorded history in various ways,

196
00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:59.559
in various documents, and I think once we discovered that

197
00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:01.799
in some of the manuscripts and we're able to apply

198
00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:05.519
it to our own experiences and then see that it

199
00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:09.000
was consistent and that this is a working system. It

200
00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.919
happens in about chapter five of the book, and basically

201
00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:18.240
that piece of information, if that's the one thing that

202
00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:22.399
an investigator or an individual can take from our book,

203
00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:25.399
that's knowledge worth sharing in our opinion, because if you

204
00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:30.360
can classify spirits, you can then understand what their motivation is.

205
00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:34.039
You can understand what potential there is for harm, but

206
00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:37.879
you can also communicate that with other people in a

207
00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:39.639
coherent and articulate way.

208
00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:44.840
It also helps in streamlining how you're going to proceed

209
00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:47.600
with your investigation and the cautions you need to take.

210
00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:54.639
Okay, now we've talked about the misconceptions about necromancy, but

211
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.120
there are a lot of misconceptions about spirits. What they are.

212
00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:03.080
You know, you ghosts at the beginning are are completely

213
00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:06.240
different than spirits. What are some of the most common

214
00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:08.440
misconceptions about spirits that people have.

215
00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:15.679
I think that there's a sort of sense of us

216
00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:22.159
and then and really it's more like like the global

217
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:27.200
community expanded out into multiple worlds. So you have spirits

218
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:30.679
that aren't human that we do interact with that turn

219
00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:33.559
up every now and again, and knowing them and knowing

220
00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:38.639
their nature is necessary when you're doing an investigation to

221
00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:41.399
be able to identify that this is not a ghost

222
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:44.240
and therefore has to have other means to interact with it.

223
00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:50.919
When it comes to classifying human spirits, it's about it's

224
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.440
really based on their behavior and the condition that they

225
00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:59.159
are in, read their attachments, and it's kind of psychological.

226
00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:05.639
You have of a way of knowing or guessing how

227
00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:08.320
they're going to react by what classification they are, so

228
00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:13.759
that you can tailor your investigation to get the best effect,

229
00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:17.279
to find a resolution in the quickest and most efficient way.

230
00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:20.600
I think that one of the major misconceptions that is

231
00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:24.360
so easy to blow out of the water in popular

232
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:27.240
media is just so you know some of the nature

233
00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:30.879
of manifestations and what they mean. When a spirit manifests

234
00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:33.279
into a space, it's because the conditions are right. It's

235
00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:37.000
not necessarily because they're trying to manifest, although sometimes that

236
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.279
might be, but very often it's just that we're getting

237
00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:42.919
a little glimpse. We're sort of seeing the manifest you know.

238
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:47.039
Shadow figures are really just, you know, something that you

239
00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:51.080
might see at a stage of manifestation. It doesn't make

240
00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:55.480
them evil or dark or anything else. It's just that

241
00:15:55.519 --> 00:16:03.799
we're seeing a spirit in the condition most congruous to our.

242
00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:08.639
Visual We're talking about environmental factors that allow us a

243
00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:12.399
glimpse right on the edge of that veil. And sometimes

244
00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:16.559
that glimpse is a bright or b like structure. Sometimes

245
00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:20.799
that glimpse is a shadow. Sometimes that glimpse is a

246
00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:25.960
transparent apparition. They're not doing it, it's just the conditions

247
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:28.919
are right for us to see just that much at

248
00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:29.919
that point in time.

249
00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:33.559
So learning to tell the difference between those environmental factors

250
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.080
and then what might be a sentient being, it's definitely

251
00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.320
one misconception. I think that another one is the nature

252
00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:45.360
of obsession and possession. A lot of times when people

253
00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.039
are getting into the realm of where they feel that

254
00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:53.360
there's some kind of otherworldly creature which might be affecting

255
00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:56.159
a person, it is the most likely thing is that

256
00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:00.399
it is a human spirit who has ill intent and

257
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:02.679
learning how to deal with them, and it is more

258
00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:04.799
than possible to learn how to deal with them. We

259
00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.200
don't need to necessarily be frightened of them. We just

260
00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:11.759
need to kind of expand our understanding. And you know,

261
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.359
people that on this side of the veil can be assholes,

262
00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:17.039
and they can be assholes on the other side of

263
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:19.440
the vale ex fair enough.

264
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:28.880
Also, the most important thing to remember is regardless of

265
00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:31.799
the state that they are in and the attachment that

266
00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:36.519
they have, ghosts are people. They're no different ultimately and

267
00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:40.000
in their essential nature to any other human being. And

268
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:42.839
if you can interact with people from all walks of

269
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:46.680
life with all different attitudes, you can learn to do

270
00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:50.480
the same with ghosts that just have particular conditions unique

271
00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:53.880
to them.

272
00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:55.839
You know, one thing that really stands out to me

273
00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:59.160
here is you mentioning shadow people as being more of

274
00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:03.440
a process in terms of their ability to appear based

275
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:06.880
on their environment. But we have seen for years now

276
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.200
there are a large number of people who blue shadow

277
00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:12.680
people are separate entity from like human or anything else.

278
00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:13.720
They're their own being.

279
00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:16.240
And of course that really lines up with what is

280
00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:18.000
known as the hat man, which is a settle person

281
00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:20.200
that a lot of people seem to have noticed, and

282
00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:24.279
they often say that they feel dread or they feel

283
00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.799
that a thick atmosphere is some sort of fear. Every

284
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:31.559
time these entities are around. You stating that these are

285
00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.559
potentially just normal people who just happen to be able

286
00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:39.079
to appear as a shadow in that moment should really

287
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:46.519
should basically contradict a lot of what these people feel.

288
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:51.640
So how do you consider what these people are experiencing

289
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:55.519
compared to what the likelihood is of the actual shadow.

290
00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:02.000
It's not really a contradiction because a spirit, when it's manifesting,

291
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.319
it doesn't have to be a human spirit. One of

292
00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:07.640
the phases of manifestation is a shadow. But when it

293
00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:09.720
is a human spirit, one of the signs that you're

294
00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:13.119
actually dealing with the human spirit is a sense of paranoia,

295
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:15.960
being watched or fear. It has to do in our

296
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:21.160
experience with sensitivity to EMM. It's one of the signs

297
00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:25.480
that the ancient magicians noted with regards to human spirits

298
00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:27.400
as opposed to other spirits. They have what they call

299
00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:29.920
signs and movements which help them identify what type of

300
00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:33.480
spirit you're dealing with. And it's not the spirit causing

301
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:38.599
the fear necessarily it's part of how they manifest in

302
00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:42.559
the conditions of where they manifest. So any spirit that's

303
00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.400
in between what we call the meta cosmos that is

304
00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:51.039
a human spirit will come with those kinds of feelings.

305
00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:58.440
The idea that shadow people are a unique type of spirit,

306
00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:02.599
I've never found any evidence to support that in all

307
00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.000
the years that we've done this. I do know that

308
00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:07.720
a spirit that is non human can also appear as

309
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:11.680
a shadow. But when we look at the folkal or

310
00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.119
around shadow people, and you talk about the hat man, well,

311
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.920
think of it this way. In their universe we now

312
00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:23.759
have milliners and an industry to create hats and so

313
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:25.680
on and so forth. It seems more likely that they're

314
00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:28.640
going to be a human spirit with appearing wearing a

315
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:35.880
hat than some unique, you know, demonic being that likes hats.

316
00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:39.400
And you know, it's like like that with the Christian

317
00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:43.960
concept of a demon. I can see where they're going.

318
00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:47.920
But in my experience, or in our experience, I should say,

319
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.119
it's usually human spirits that have ill intent that will

320
00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:54.960
try to scare people by implying that that's what they are.

321
00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:58.599
I've yet to come across anything that really fits the

322
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:02.599
fiend of Hell bracket in any investigation I've done, and

323
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.599
I've and you know, we've dealt with more than human

324
00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:09.960
spirits in our investigations. So as we said, we're pretty

325
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:14.519
ordinary people, pretty practical, and I would have to see

326
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:19.039
the evidence of that before I could say that shadow

327
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:23.519
people are a specific branch of spirits or that there's

328
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:25.599
demons out there that want to eat your face just

329
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:27.839
because that's their nature. I haven't seen it at all,

330
00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:31.519
So I think that's that's for us. It has to

331
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:34.400
it has to be something that we've come across, dealt

332
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:36.720
with and talked by experience on.

333
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:39.640
So, so chew that in and just to summarize, so

334
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.920
when it is a shadow person, the fact that there

335
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:47.319
is a feeling of fear just confirms that they are

336
00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:48.680
human spirits.

337
00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:54.240
Okay, okay, And and that record goes back well over

338
00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:55.119
a thousand years.

339
00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:00.400
You know, the human body is the most receptive tool

340
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.839
when it comes to detecting spirits. We have this inate

341
00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:08.759
ability to feel when a spirit, and especially a revenant spirit,

342
00:22:08.839 --> 00:22:11.359
like a spirit hasn't crossed over when they're present, you know,

343
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:16.200
we feel afraid, we are our skin prickles, and we

344
00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:19.319
might feel cold. They're all signs that it's a human

345
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:21.880
spirit that's present and.

346
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:23.400
They're well recorded signs.

347
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:29.799
Now, you mentioned you guys have come across non human spirits.

348
00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:31.480
What other type of spirits have you come across?

349
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:35.680
Probably the most common is what's known as terrestrial spirits.

350
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:40.119
The people will call them nature spirits and stuff like that.

351
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.559
They have multiple forms, so they can be scary when

352
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:46.759
you come across them. And as we're talking about signs

353
00:22:46.759 --> 00:22:51.200
and movements earlier, one of the signs of terrestrial spirits

354
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:55.519
is red eyes, not because they're evil or nasty, just

355
00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:59.039
that's something that you often see with them. And they're

356
00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:03.400
intensely curious. So especially when there's something going on a

357
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:07.759
spirit disturbance and people turn up to investigate, or they

358
00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.319
they love when there's electronic stuff they've never seen before

359
00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:14.920
and stuff like that, and they will flood a space

360
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.160
where one spirit is causing the disturbance, but now you're

361
00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.440
investigating and they'll start flooding the space. It's really common.

362
00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:27.480
I remember in one case they were a paranormal team

363
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:31.880
was looking for a specific entity that was that was

364
00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:36.839
obsessing a location and they turned the lights off and

365
00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:38.599
they took a flash of property and there was one

366
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.279
orb that was clearly a human or because they're unique.

367
00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:44.559
They're very bright and alvalescent and have a blue corona

368
00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:47.319
around them and so on, and it was there and

369
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.359
then they pulled out. They're pulling out all their equipment

370
00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:51.000
in the dark, and about five minutes later they take

371
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.640
another photo and the room is filled with orcs, all

372
00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:57.960
irregular shapes and strange and wonderful. That's a good indication

373
00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:02.519
that Treshfold spirits are turning out well. They're incredibly, incredibly

374
00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:05.759
curious and a lot of hauntings are put down to them,

375
00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:11.960
and people don't realize they'll they will interact in your

376
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:16.359
physical environment just because they're curious and interested. There's others.

377
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:21.240
There's aerial spirits and aqua spirits. These classifications go back

378
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:28.000
to before the tenth century. They're not actually of the elements.

379
00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:32.400
They just use the elements to classify them, and later

380
00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:37.519
on they use planetary classifications. But there's numerous kinds of

381
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.200
spirits that are constantly flicking in and out of our world,

382
00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:45.160
and we can we tend to interact with them, and

383
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.920
they're unique to themselves and the world that they originate in.

384
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.880
But one thing we do find consistently across all cultures

385
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:55.519
is that there is a certain number of them, and

386
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.319
the way that they've recorded them is usually about seven

387
00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:02.319
of them, and and the way that they classified the

388
00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:05.759
way they behave is consistent. In our book, we've tried

389
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:08.319
to sort of take a bit of a universalist approach,

390
00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:14.200
drawing from ceremonial and medieval sources however you can find them. Also,

391
00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:18.680
we refer to Sellers, who was from He was.

392
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:27.920
A Greek Orthodox philosopher theologian, and he writes about dens

393
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:31.359
from a great coosthration point of view and the classifications

394
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:31.799
they use.

395
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:35.519
Yeah, which is why we think it's a valuable tool,

396
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:38.000
being able to sort of look at these classifications and

397
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:40.519
then apply it to experience and sort of see where

398
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.839
where it is. And there's always room for more experimentation.

399
00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:48.480
There's room for personal experience and way that that's interpreted.

400
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.359
It's very hard to record what some of these experiences are,

401
00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:55.920
and so usually when when this knowledge gets passed on,

402
00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:58.559
it's usually gets passed on with some experiences or with

403
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.519
some knowledge so that individuals can sort of see what

404
00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:04.319
that means for them because they experience of it might

405
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:05.039
be unique.

406
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:11.640
Okay, now, So for people who are just starting out

407
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:15.880
in say paranormal investigation, or just interested in the paranormal,

408
00:26:16.279 --> 00:26:18.640
what's the most important thing that they should know.

409
00:26:20.920 --> 00:26:24.480
I think building your knowledge base is primary. I mean

410
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:28.599
knowledge is power, right, and when you go to an investigation,

411
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:31.839
you want to know as much as you can about

412
00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:35.480
what's going on. The other thing is obviously things like

413
00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:42.880
protection and and a good investigative methodology so that you're

414
00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:45.400
safe and that you've got a logical process of what

415
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:47.960
you're going through. All that's fantastic, but when it comes

416
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.599
down to it, walking into a dynamic situation of a

417
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.799
spirit disturbance without a solid knowledge base is going to

418
00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:00.880
set you at an incredible disadvantage from the beginning, and

419
00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:01.400
that is.

420
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:05.039
It's a little hard to develop. There hasn't been a good,

421
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:10.039
trustworthy source. There's been a lot of good individuals who

422
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:14.200
have shared some experiences, and there's been a lot of

423
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:18.319
interesting theories about, you know, what things could be and

424
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:20.839
things that work for people. And I guess what we

425
00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:24.079
wanted to supply here is something that could be a

426
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:28.839
primer to introduce someone from what's going on in the

427
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:33.559
invisible world through to how to identify something is harmful

428
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:36.720
and then some methods of how to deal with it.

429
00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:41.359
It isn't something that is for everyone, but we do

430
00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:45.880
hope that, you know, adding a little bit of foundation

431
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:50.400
to some of the investigations and studies, because as much

432
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:53.279
as there is exciting and interesting things going on in

433
00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:58.160
popular media and in the experimentation that people do, there

434
00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:01.480
is this underlying foundation of knowledge that has been lost

435
00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:04.240
to most people, and so being able to sort of

436
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:08.759
bring that forward into this century has been you know,

437
00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:11.640
we hope helpful for others. But in terms of what

438
00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:14.119
is most important, I think is to understand why you're

439
00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:18.160
doing it. Is to understand who you are, how you're

440
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:21.079
going to protect yourself, who you are as an individual,

441
00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:25.759
and so that you can identify when an experience is

442
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:29.759
outside of yourself or whether it's happening internally inside you,

443
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:34.440
whether your reactions to the environment is your reaction to

444
00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:37.559
a spirit. Do you have the knowledge and the skill

445
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:39.759
to be able to communicate with a spirit if that's

446
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:43.119
what you're trying to do, and then what are you

447
00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:48.319
going to do if things don't go your way?

448
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:52.440
Now, you guys have been talking about knowledge for a

449
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:55.640
little bit here, so I think this question kind of

450
00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:58.119
lines up with what you guys are talking about. In

451
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:00.920
your view, what wisdom have we lost for the nechromatic

452
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.519
practices that could help us better understand the paranormal today.

453
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:09.000
We think about paranormal investigation over the last century and

454
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:12.920
how quickly it's evolved, how much information has been gathered

455
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:16.359
and experimentation has created new means and new pathways to

456
00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:21.240
find out more information. And that's only in one hundred years. Really,

457
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:25.759
it's only in the last sixty odd years. So imagine

458
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:29.279
the information that was collected by practical magicians doing this

459
00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:35.799
for two thousand years. That information doesn't change because we're

460
00:29:35.799 --> 00:29:39.039
living in the modern times, because the experience is the same.

461
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:44.440
That information is tried and true and tested over to millennium.

462
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:47.960
That can give you a bulwark of information before you

463
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:52.079
even step foot in an investigation. We're not saying one

464
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:54.079
is right and one is wrong. We're saying that it's

465
00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:58.759
a continuum of information. Hopefully, another thousand years from now

466
00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:04.720
will be the blending of all the new paranormal research

467
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:08.599
and the old will bring us to an even greater understanding.

468
00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:12.119
But at the moment, there's no reason that we can't

469
00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:17.200
inform ourselves from the past and understanding what's happening right now.

470
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:23.880
Do you think there's any modern research in the paranormal

471
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:27.960
that kind of cancel out or belittles some of our

472
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:31.440
past understanding, some of the ancient understanding of the paranormal.

473
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:35.359
Yeah, absolutely, you know, I think that there's there's always

474
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:39.160
room for that. And you know, we briefly mentioned the

475
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:42.160
you know, the art of lango, so we don't talk

476
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:43.680
about it a whole lot in the book, but it

477
00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:46.799
really is where this practice comes from. So it's a

478
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:50.960
community service and it sort of fell to in Scotland

479
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:56.279
at least it fell to ministers and other ordained individuals

480
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:59.279
and elders who would be the person that you would

481
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:02.880
call on who had the authority to deal with the

482
00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:08.839
spirit when they weren't listening. But that being said, there

483
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:12.559
is a lot of a lot of interaction and a

484
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:17.000
lot of interplay between the community and that individual and

485
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:19.920
between the spirit world. And I think that one of

486
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:22.119
the major things that we have lost is that connection

487
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:24.640
where we start to think of the spirit world as

488
00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:27.319
outside of ourselves. We start to think of the belief

489
00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:29.920
in the spirit world as something that is irrational and

490
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:33.599
somehow demeans us. If we have interactions with the spirit world,

491
00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:36.200
or that we have to question individuals who do and

492
00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:38.960
we have to question their sanity. No, I think that

493
00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:44.680
ultimately the natural relationship between the living and the dead,

494
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:49.559
and also the community responsibility that we have both to

495
00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:52.440
the living and the dead, is one of the fundamental

496
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.640
reasons that many of the things that we've lost over time,

497
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.359
and the knowledge that we've lost and the way that

498
00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:01.480
we will regain it is just by understanding that these

499
00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:05.720
things are integrated, they are continuous, they are part of

500
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:08.559
our human experience, and when we deny this one part

501
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:12.279
of our human experience, then we start to fear, We

502
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.079
start to you know, not have the understanding that we

503
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:18.559
could have to resolve ordinary things around us.

504
00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:23.279
History is also a number of schemes in a larger

505
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:27.160
tapestry and its peaks and valleys to cross metaphors. So

506
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:32.319
there are periods in history where we've lost so much information,

507
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:38.039
and erroneous information has been promulgated and preferred information based

508
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:45.839
on certain philosophies has spread. We focus kind of right

509
00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:50.799
on the cusp of the twelfth century Enlightenment, where the

510
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:57.640
old magic was becoming more modern and mysticism was embraced

511
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:01.599
the following century. Of course that was suppressed, but that

512
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:05.559
period it's kind of like a golden Age where the

513
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:08.079
period prior to it was there was a there was

514
00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:11.759
a full continuity of tradition leading up to that point,

515
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:14.960
and we've sort of did use that as a jumping

516
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:20.039
off point. But of course there are things that can

517
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:23.559
be discovered that will either highlight something from the past

518
00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:27.680
or say they got it wrong. For this reason. One

519
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:31.920
good example of a highlight is the signs and movements

520
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:37.039
of a human spirit, the costs where they cause fear

521
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:41.119
or cold spots, which have both been confirmed numerous times

522
00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.799
in various paranormal investigations for the last sixty years and

523
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:51.039
has become part of the urban folklore. So here's two

524
00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:55.599
experiences that are identical you have in the toss Entry Enlightenment.

525
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:58.160
They're seen as signs of what a human spirit is,

526
00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:01.359
and they are the same things that people are experiencing today.

527
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:04.799
So there is a continuity of experience because this isn't

528
00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:08.519
just philosophy, this is people experiencing real things, right.

529
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:11.679
I want to kind of follow up at that too,

530
00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:15.920
like what is so investigating the paranormal the whuoal idea

531
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:18.280
of researching the paranormal and trying to learn about it

532
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:22.880
is considered a pseudoscience. At what point do you think

533
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:26.159
it merges with what is are you know, modern secular science?

534
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:31.039
Because modern science denies the existence of the paranormal, while

535
00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:34.760
pseudoscientists who are very much scientists and in themselves who

536
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:38.079
have evidence, say otherwise. And yet there's this constant butting

537
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:40.880
of heads. Do you think that could ever be breached

538
00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:44.199
or why do you think there's such a such a

539
00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:45.079
do you think.

540
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:49.199
It can be breached? There's a period of scientific rationalism

541
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:54.679
that kicks off kind of nineteenth century ishue. You got

542
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:58.400
to remember that most of the scientific principles or the

543
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:01.199
things upon which science built was that actually from esotericism

544
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:05.880
in the past. The idea of forming a hypothesis, a

545
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:10.440
logical hypothesis, testing it, and when it's tried and proven

546
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:14.480
to be repeatable, it becomes part of the system that

547
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:19.119
that's been involved with magic since recorded history, so that

548
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:21.639
the so called scientific method has been there the whole time.

549
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:25.000
You look at some of the great scientists in the

550
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:29.400
Enlightenment period and and the Renaissance, and they were occultists.

551
00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:34.119
The idea that that spirituality and science are divorced is

552
00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:39.960
really a post Victorian idea. And there are plenty of

553
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:42.719
scientists that are open minded. Science should be about having

554
00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:46.840
an open mind and testing, but there are those who don't,

555
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:49.519
and and when they when they see science is only

556
00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:54.679
what can be measured in our universe, they missing everything

557
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:59.199
else that could be out there. So so that the

558
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:03.400
logger between the two types of scientists, I think, well

559
00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:09.960
that that curiosity and acceptance will ultimately win out. I

560
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:15.519
think that the super rationalism will not last in the

561
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:18.119
fields that are that are active at the moment. Who

562
00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:20.480
knows in the future. Because a lot of this is

563
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.519
about philosophies. Scientists like to think they're not philosophical, but

564
00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:26.360
there as philosophical as anybody else. They have an opinion,

565
00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:30.519
they have a predisposition, and you know they're either trying

566
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:31.880
to prove it or disprove it.

567
00:36:33.639 --> 00:36:36.000
I think you have it much more a more positive

568
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:36.840
approach than I do.

569
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:37.280
Rob.

570
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:41.719
I feel that you know, one day they might come together,

571
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:45.719
but I think that it's a long standing narrative and

572
00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:48.559
it's going to take a lot to change that or

573
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:51.360
to dispel either side. And I think that's enough room

574
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:54.400
for all that contradiction. It's okay. It's okay that science

575
00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:58.039
can be what it is, and you know, parapsychology can

576
00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:02.480
find its own place, and magic gonccultism finds its own way.

577
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.079
People have their own unique ways of the way they

578
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:08.199
interact and discover through the universe. I don't think that

579
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:11.079
there is necessarily one answer or that one is correct.

580
00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:13.440
All of them can be true.

581
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:18.280
The universe is multifaceted, giant, bigger than the one we know,

582
00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:23.079
and completely confusing, so there's room in it for every

583
00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:26.000
paradox you can imagine.

584
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:32.679
I love that answer. Now, there's a lot of people

585
00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:36.599
that tend to want to open themselves up to communicating

586
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:41.400
with spirits. In your guys opinion, what is a safe

587
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:45.679
way to do that without opening themselves up to harmor deception.

588
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:49.519
I think, first of all, know who you're talking to

589
00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:51.320
and who you want to open up to, and be

590
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:56.000
certain of it. That's that's rule number one. Trans Mediumship

591
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:59.199
is old. It goes back to ancient Greece. The Necromantean

592
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:03.599
had their transmitis in it. So there are safe ways.

593
00:38:03.880 --> 00:38:06.039
It depends on your methodology and where you learn to

594
00:38:06.039 --> 00:38:09.679
do it. There are safe ways. Same with you know,

595
00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:15.519
people who consider themselves empathic and other sensitives. There's ways

596
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:19.320
to do it. The idea is to be as safe

597
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:23.280
as possible when doing it and not to jump into early.

598
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:27.320
I would just add to that, So if your question

599
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:29.920
was about communicating with spirits and a way to start

600
00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:34.840
that build that skill. Protection is obviously very important, but

601
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:38.880
I would also start working with trusted spirits. Start working

602
00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:44.559
with those ancestors, your grandmother who's passed, or spirits that

603
00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:47.039
you can trust, get familiar with them and start to

604
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:52.280
develop a relationship before you ever try to communicate with

605
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:55.880
a restless spirit or a ghost or a revenant spirit.

606
00:38:56.280 --> 00:39:00.760
Because the difference is between how protected you are kind

607
00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:04.079
of need an ally, and you also need to develop

608
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:06.840
your own skills and have trust in them. If you

609
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:09.239
try to jump too much into the deep end, you'll

610
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.679
never know for sure whether it's your own ability or

611
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:16.480
whether you're hearing something external or whether it's internal. You

612
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:18.840
have to kind of develop that skill, and it is

613
00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:22.199
a skill that can be learned. We put a couple

614
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:25.079
of exercises in the book where people who are interested

615
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:27.719
in communicating with spirit they can do that in a

616
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:32.000
very logical way. There's many many ways that people do

617
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:35.760
it for people do get training. The method that we've

618
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.840
put in is something that's tried and tried and tested.

619
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.000
It's something that if you follow it and do it,

620
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:46.719
it will definitely strengthen your ability to communicate with spirits.

621
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:49.559
But like any training regime you put yourself through, you

622
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.639
have to work at it. You can't look for shortcuts

623
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:59.800
or try to explain away and excuse what you don't

624
00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:02.159
know so that you can get you can jump to

625
00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:02.559
the action.

626
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:05.840
And the same advice applies to someone who has a

627
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:10.719
natural ability learning how to control that ability, how to

628
00:40:11.239 --> 00:40:15.440
apply a protection when it's required, how to communicate at will,

629
00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:19.639
and to trust that communication also requires some kind of

630
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:21.280
self discipline and training.

631
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:24.840
Right, and then it's and so the on top of that,

632
00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:28.000
it's not just simply training and learning, but once you've

633
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.480
learned the skill, you need to continue to practice it

634
00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:33.039
so that it doesn't blow I'm rusty and you come

635
00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:34.119
better at it.

636
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:39.320
Yeah, skills atrophy, skills kanatrophy. And also it's just it's

637
00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:41.320
learning how to be able to access the right state

638
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:43.000
of mind to be able to do it. It's just

639
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:45.960
like you know, you know, if you if you were

640
00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:49.039
learning how to track and hunt. You would have to

641
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:53.400
develop those skills particular to the activity you were trying

642
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:55.760
to do. This is no different you or if you

643
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:57.880
had to learn how to study to get through an

644
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:00.960
academic schedule. You have to all those skills. You get

645
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:02.679
better at it the more you do it. If it's

646
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:05.079
been a long time, I could not imagine taking a

647
00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:08.000
math test right now. That would just be terrifying, But

648
00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:10.480
you know there was a time where that would be

649
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:11.920
a pretty natural thing for me to do.

650
00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:17.199
Also, you have to understand that there's trans Mediumship isn't

651
00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:21.960
just about talking to ghosts. Most spiritualists and spiritualist based

652
00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:26.000
systems work on talking to what's called the laries. They're

653
00:41:26.119 --> 00:41:29.440
the ones that are not traumatized and stuck in between.

654
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:32.000
They're the ones who've moved on and are have made

655
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:34.880
it to the other side, whatever conception of the other

656
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:39.320
side you have, and they're freed up from their attachments

657
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:43.639
and they're helping out. There's a big difference between spirit

658
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:48.199
guides who are laris and trying to interact with a

659
00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:52.800
spirit that's traumatized and stuck because of their attachments, which

660
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:57.960
may be angry or upset or confused, and so it's

661
00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:01.119
a different type of communication and one that you have

662
00:42:01.159 --> 00:42:02.400
to be much more cast yourself.

663
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:06.719
But in both cases, building a relationship with Alari's spirit

664
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:10.400
is always going to be more beneficial because they can

665
00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:12.360
help guide you through those out of processes.

666
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:19.039
Okay, now, Rob, you mentioned know who you're talking to.

667
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:25.199
How can we tell what is good what is bad?

668
00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:31.000
Or those definitions are very obscure. I think, how can

669
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:33.000
you tell who you're talking to?

670
00:42:33.559 --> 00:42:38.800
Yeah, this is a broad subject because first of all,

671
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:41.360
you have to identify that there is actually a spirit there.

672
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.119
There's a lot of things that can look like an

673
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:47.440
obsession or home thing. When you've identified that it is

674
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:53.159
actually a human spirit that's disturbing a location, you're then

675
00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:55.880
looking at trying to identify aspects of who it is.

676
00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:58.840
So a lot of research goes into that if someone's

677
00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:00.880
seen them, you might take note of their clothing and

678
00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:03.559
attire and try and guess a time period that There's

679
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:06.880
a whole bunch of things that an investigation you to

680
00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:09.480
do to try and narrow down who that person might be.

681
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:13.679
When you actually begin communicating with them, you only have

682
00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:15.880
a short time to communicate with them, so don't waste

683
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:20.000
time asking ridiculous questions that are not germane to the

684
00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:22.880
resolution you're looking for, because you won't have a lot

685
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:26.360
of time. But when you are communicating with him, you

686
00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:29.119
want to steer away from yes and no questions. You

687
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:31.679
want to steer away from giving them any information that

688
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:34.320
they can repeat back to you or embroider upon to

689
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:37.679
make themselves seem like there's someone that they're not. You

690
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:40.320
have to be very disciplined in the way that you

691
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:43.559
approach the communication. What in magic is referred to as

692
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:47.679
the interrogatio, So you want to be able. You want

693
00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:53.000
to basically prepare a list of questions that you're going

694
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:56.159
to ask, and then once you finally get the answer,

695
00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:58.320
and you may be certain it's the person you're talking to,

696
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:01.639
you may think it might not be, or you're not sure.

697
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:04.880
The answers that you receive have to go through an

698
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:08.480
analysis with other evidence to back them up. You don't

699
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:13.800
take anything at face value, because an investigation is going

700
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.679
to collect a mountain of data, and that data is

701
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:19.519
going to come down to evidence, and that evidence has

702
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:22.679
to be analyzed to create the picture of what is

703
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:26.280
actually going on. And deception is a tool that some

704
00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:28.119
spirits will use, so you have to go in with

705
00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:32.480
us the knowledge you might be being deceived at that point.

706
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:36.039
Mind you, deception is something human beings do too, because

707
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:38.719
we've all walked into a case where the situation was

708
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:43.679
a hoax. So it's not you know, it's not exclusive

709
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:44.599
to ghosts.

710
00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:48.079
Oh absolutely, I agree.

711
00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:53.039
Well, Now, speaking of cases, after about thirty years of

712
00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:56.159
research and experience, for you, like, are there any cases

713
00:44:56.239 --> 00:44:59.920
or encounters that have stood out or are particularly meaningful

714
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:01.719
or surprising even.

715
00:45:02.119 --> 00:45:03.679
Oh, that's a really difficult question.

716
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:09.599
For one thing, that there's such a vast variety of experiences.

717
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:13.320
I don't think you could choose just one. Secondly, we

718
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.039
try to be discreet. We don't show photographs of any

719
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:19.039
investigation we've done of a location or the people involved.

720
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:23.639
We talk in general terms, but I think emotionally one

721
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:26.119
that and we were asked this question recently and answered

722
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:28.599
the same thing. Emotionally. There was one we had where

723
00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:33.280
it was the spirit of a young boy who had

724
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:36.960
been around for a little while in a particular area.

725
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:42.719
He had died of exposure in the mountains, and he

726
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:44.960
was he thought he was going to get in trouble

727
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:47.039
because his mother would be angry that he didn't have

728
00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:51.639
his cardiganism and that was why he wasn't open to

729
00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:55.280
seeing her or guidance to move over. And we were

730
00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:58.159
there in the resolution and helped him to see her.

731
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:01.880
And it was an incredibly in mode of experience that

732
00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:04.119
choked us both up and we still think about it today.

733
00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:09.480
A lot of the most powerful experiences are really the

734
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:13.239
most simple ones. It's very often for us it's a

735
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:15.760
resolution for the spirit where they just kind of go, oh,

736
00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:19.840
you mean, I can move on, I can go, you know,

737
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:24.159
And they often are the ones that have been most numerous.

738
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:26.599
It's very often the case where they really just don't

739
00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:30.039
have a real interest in the people that are there.

740
00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:35.719
They just kind of want to finish whatever unresolved if

741
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:40.800
issue or task. Sometimes it was you know, a lady

742
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:43.159
who left that she wanted to make sure her brother

743
00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:45.440
got the will she left in the drawer because she

744
00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:48.440
was a bit worried that, you know, the inheritance wasn't

745
00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:50.440
going to go to the right person. You know, these

746
00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:54.159
are very kind of simple and unusual things that really

747
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:56.719
are a big concern to somebody in the spirit world.

748
00:46:56.920 --> 00:46:59.639
The ones they resolved, they move on very quickly.

749
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:05.840
If you're asking about dangerous or exciting or yeah, powerful

750
00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:08.440
phenomenon we've seen. We've come across that too. I've been

751
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:16.880
knocked over, pushed, punched, things thrown at me, all that

752
00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:20.440
that has happened. But they're not the things that stand

753
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:24.280
out to me the most. It's the emotional, the powerfully

754
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:27.719
emotional experiences that we've come across, so I think stand

755
00:47:27.719 --> 00:47:28.280
out the most.

756
00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:31.159
Perhaps one of our experiences that is a little bit

757
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:34.119
different to someone who's coming from the point of view

758
00:47:34.119 --> 00:47:37.199
of a paranormal investigator is that we're looking for if

759
00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:41.760
there's a magical influence as well, and so if there's

760
00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:48.239
kind of you know, residual manifestation, or if people have

761
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:52.280
been dabbling in magic and they've kind of created something,

762
00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:54.920
or or if there's an incidence of what we call

763
00:47:55.000 --> 00:48:00.079
soul loss where individuals kind of manifest phantasms from them

764
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:04.519
cells that can be apparent and appear to other people. So,

765
00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:08.440
you know, and very often that's the point where we're

766
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:12.199
asked to participate in something, is where something has gone

767
00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:15.599
and it can't be explained by regular haunting, and so

768
00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:19.199
we're really looking at kind of what other factors could

769
00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:22.039
be at play that might have some kind of occult

770
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:23.719
or magical basis to it.

771
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:28.719
Going back for a second to the simple answer, the

772
00:48:28.840 --> 00:48:31.280
vast majority of cases will come down to something that

773
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:35.480
you would probably think you wouldn't hold on to, like

774
00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:39.840
why is that the attachment? But there's a change in

775
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:45.679
cognition when someone immediately after physical demise, and what they're

776
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:50.039
holding on to might seem irrelevant to the investigator, but

777
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:56.480
is the lynchpin of reconciling their confusion. And so you

778
00:48:56.559 --> 00:49:00.440
have to be aware that not everything is dramatic. Times

779
00:49:00.440 --> 00:49:04.119
the most simple answer will yield the greatest results.

780
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:07.719
And there's many times where this solution is for everyone

781
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:10.400
to just peaceably coexist.

782
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:20.159
Now, there's so much information in this book. What is

783
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:23.840
your hope that readers take from on quiet Voices?

784
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:27.079
I think you said it. There's a lot of information

785
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:30.239
in it, don't We never intended to be a book

786
00:49:31.639 --> 00:49:34.280
that you read and then put back on your shelf.

787
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:37.519
It's something that we're hoping someone who's actively involved in investigation

788
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:41.639
will come back to read and try to grasp or

789
00:49:41.719 --> 00:49:46.280
see in it something that they've experienced to empower their

790
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:49.840
own knowledge base. It's easy to tell someone this is

791
00:49:49.880 --> 00:49:52.840
happening for this reason, but they don't get it often

792
00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:55.400
until they experience it. So the first time you read

793
00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:57.239
the book, you might not grasp some of the nuance

794
00:49:57.280 --> 00:49:59.800
in it until you've walked into a room and felt

795
00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:04.840
that dense, heavy feeling, or where you've identified where something

796
00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:08.840
is emf sensitivity, or where you've dealt with a spirit

797
00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:12.440
that has a particular obsession, whatever it is, and then

798
00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:14.280
you come back to the book and then suddenly it

799
00:50:14.360 --> 00:50:17.440
pops back out at you that this is what this

800
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:20.360
is talking about. I just had that experience, And we're

801
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.920
hoping that the book is something that people will return

802
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:27.280
to like a manual more than a casual read.

803
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:29.760
Yeah, we originally hoped it would be more like a

804
00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:35.400
field guide for those people who are trying to resolve

805
00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:39.079
a situation, not just experience it for themselves. So our

806
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:42.920
hope is that we have provided enough tools that people

807
00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:46.800
who really want to take this on can resolve a

808
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:49.800
situation and not just go, yep, you're haunted. That's great,

809
00:50:50.079 --> 00:50:53.199
and move on to the next experience for themselves, but

810
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:55.880
to actually sort of bring some peace to this situation

811
00:50:56.000 --> 00:51:00.800
that they're dealing with. And I think that a main

812
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:06.360
motivation for us is you know, we come from tradition

813
00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:10.280
and culture that has been very rich, but we've also

814
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:12.360
had to fill in a lot of gaps, and we

815
00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:15.519
would love if, you know, there was just a handful

816
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:18.840
out there who could see that around in their own culture,

817
00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:24.039
their own their own traditions, and see that there is

818
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:26.840
information out there. And we've tried to put it in

819
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:29.480
a very universalist sort of way so that people can

820
00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:32.079
apply it to their own faith, their own religion, their

821
00:51:32.119 --> 00:51:34.320
own experiences, or their own culture.

822
00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:37.400
Because it's an objective experience fundamentally.

823
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:45.519
Okay, well, now, in your opinion, is there a type

824
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:50.079
of individual that should resist from necromancy and why would

825
00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:50.440
that be?

826
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:54.320
I think that would be like saying, is there a

827
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:58.320
type of person who shouldn't be a firefighters. There's potential

828
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:04.679
danger in necromancy, So anyone who's unable to have a

829
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:12.960
professional detachment to or who is obviously maybe suffering from

830
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:16.360
delusion or things like that should stay away from it.

831
00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:19.880
But necromancy has been part of the human experience in

832
00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:24.639
every culture, in every part of the globe. And as

833
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:29.920
none was saying earlier, community and the community of the

834
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:37.320
dead have always lived symbiotically and in our modern age,

835
00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:40.119
we don't even see the animals we kill to eat.

836
00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:43.119
We buy them wrapped in cellophane in a shop. So

837
00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:50.079
there's this disconnect with not only physical death, but the

838
00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:54.760
community of the dead, and that's not healthy for the

839
00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:58.800
community of the living. And ultimately, I think that anyone

840
00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:06.159
who is motivated by compassion and by the desire to

841
00:53:06.199 --> 00:53:09.639
help others who are who are experiencing something that can

842
00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:14.679
seem quite traumatic, anyone who's moved by that can do

843
00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:19.159
this work. It's it's not reserved for you know, Gandalf

844
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:22.440
or something like that. It's it's something that happens in

845
00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:26.679
every community. There are people in traditional communities here in

846
00:53:26.679 --> 00:53:29.280
the United States, say in the Appalachian Mountains or in

847
00:53:29.320 --> 00:53:32.840
the Ozarks, that know this sort of stuff and are

848
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:36.320
the people that people will turn to when they're when

849
00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:42.119
they're facing it. There's just fewer and further between today

850
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:45.639
than there was in the past. And that's more about

851
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:48.679
society not including it in its sense of self.

852
00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:53.000
Yeah, and just to divide your question a little, so

853
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:56.880
in necromancy, communicating with the dead is really something that

854
00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:01.800
you know, making that connection with life after death or

855
00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:04.320
those who are around us who have passed on. You know,

856
00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:07.679
we hope that everybody starts to make that connection if

857
00:54:07.719 --> 00:54:10.079
they don't have it in their lives already. When we're

858
00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:13.519
talking about the practice of skiamancy actually being on location

859
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:17.599
where there is a restless spirit causing a haunting, then

860
00:54:17.639 --> 00:54:20.840
we do make some suggestions about the type of person

861
00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:24.280
that you know is better to remove from the situation.

862
00:54:25.239 --> 00:54:31.519
That includes children, a woman who's pregnant. If someone is

863
00:54:31.719 --> 00:54:39.000
it's in some way emotionally or mentally at risk, or

864
00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:42.599
has been possessed or obsessed in the past and doesn't

865
00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:45.960
have control of that situation or very good protection, they

866
00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:48.559
are not good people to have when you're trying to

867
00:54:48.679 --> 00:54:51.400
undergo an investigation or where you feel that there may

868
00:54:51.440 --> 00:54:53.960
be harm from a spirit that could be caused.

869
00:54:54.199 --> 00:55:02.039
Also health conditions like anxiety, heart conditions, severe asthma, hyperventilation,

870
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:06.320
that sort of stuff. If people have physical conditions that

871
00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:09.840
can be exasperated by the events that are occurring, it's

872
00:55:09.880 --> 00:55:12.159
better to remove them from the investigation if you can.

873
00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:16.519
We also have a tradition around people who are excessively

874
00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:23.559
hemorrhaging or bleeding because it does attract it attracts spirits

875
00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:27.719
to what we call pasma that is surrounding it. You know,

876
00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:32.800
it's kind of like a free feast. So individuals, individuals

877
00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:37.440
who are suffering some kind of physical trauma, mental or

878
00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:44.079
emotional at risk, have a child in utero, or some

879
00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:47.840
other reason why they do not have control between or

880
00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:52.159
separation between themselves and the spirit world, they really shouldn't

881
00:55:52.199 --> 00:55:53.760
be participating in an investigation.

882
00:55:54.079 --> 00:55:57.039
And someone who's being targeted for a spirit by severe

883
00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:02.079
oppression is not someone to wave as bait. They should

884
00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:06.079
be removed away from a location where they're being targeted.

885
00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:09.320
If the spirit fallows them, which can happen because they're

886
00:56:09.400 --> 00:56:12.440
they're fixations upon them, that might be a different situation.

887
00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:14.679
You might need to put some protections in place. But

888
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:16.960
if the spirit is related to a location and they're

889
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:20.119
oppressing someone in the location, best to remove the person

890
00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:23.199
from a location if that helps.

891
00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:28.559
Yeah, while the investigation, I definitely get on board with that.

892
00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:33.719
I think I've I've heard too many stories of people

893
00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:37.360
who use individuals as bait who are suffering from oppression,

894
00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:41.039
and you know, the investigators end up leaving the home

895
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:45.480
and things are just worse for that individual. It's just sad.

896
00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:50.719
It's kind of like the situation with using sage stage.

897
00:56:51.159 --> 00:56:56.360
What sage does is it makes it the conditions very

898
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:59.159
hard for spirit to interact with our physical world. But

899
00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:01.880
the effects of sayage only lasts about two to three weeks.

900
00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:05.159
You'll if you watch a lot of paranormal shows I'm

901
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:09.159
sure you guys do, you'll note that oftentimes I'll say, oh,

902
00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:12.599
you know, two or three weeks after the investigators sage

903
00:57:12.599 --> 00:57:14.519
the house and cleansed date, it all came back again.

904
00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:18.440
Because sage doesn't remove a spirit, It only, you know,

905
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:22.559
changes the environments of spirit has less opportunity to act.

906
00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:27.320
You would need to do something more after.

907
00:57:27.039 --> 00:57:30.760
That or continuously use sage to mitigate the situation.

908
00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:34.760
And you know, that's the kind of knowledge that that

909
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:40.599
goes a long way for investigators to know because there's

910
00:57:40.639 --> 00:57:43.719
a lot of you know, this can be solved in

911
00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:47.480
this particular way in our experience. There's no one way

912
00:57:47.519 --> 00:57:54.360
to resolve or reconcile an obsession and a location, because

913
00:57:54.360 --> 00:57:57.679
it's as different as trying to deal with different people

914
00:57:57.719 --> 00:58:02.119
are ghosts are people, and they unique, and every investigation

915
00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:06.079
is unique, and the answer isn't always good. There's no

916
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:11.039
one packaged answer you can use the reconciliation is always

917
00:58:11.079 --> 00:58:15.239
going to be tailored to the events and the attachments

918
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:17.519
of the spirit that you're working with, if that makes sense.

919
00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:19.920
Yeah, and we heard that that comes across in the book.

920
00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:23.920
What we're trying to offer is a process of working.

921
00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:28.840
We're trying to offer, you know, some rules of engagement

922
00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:32.320
of how to go about things, but that the actual situation,

923
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:36.920
you really do have to approach each one as it comes.

924
00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:41.440
All right, Well, and I appreciate you all bringing that up,

925
00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:44.079
because I mean, I think Eric can attest to this.

926
00:58:44.360 --> 00:58:47.639
When we first started doing paranoral investigation, I think one

927
00:58:47.639 --> 00:58:50.679
of the things that was kind of ingrained in us,

928
00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:54.920
mostly because of you know, paranoral shows and stuff like that,

929
00:58:55.119 --> 00:58:59.519
is to cleanse the house, you know, stage and tell

930
00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:04.320
the spirit leave and stuff like that. But like you

931
00:59:04.360 --> 00:59:09.039
guys are mentioning, it's somewhat more complex than just doing

932
00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:10.519
one of those specific things.

933
00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:15.679
Although one staging may work if a spirit is active

934
00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:18.039
in a location and for two or three weeks can't

935
00:59:18.079 --> 00:59:20.760
be active, they just might move on. But the thing

936
00:59:20.800 --> 00:59:24.679
with some forms of exorcism and moving spirits on is

937
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:27.719
if the spirit is dangerous and it's you know, the

938
00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:31.000
obsession is turning towards an oppression. If you just move

939
00:59:31.039 --> 00:59:32.679
it on, it's going to do it to someone else.

940
00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:36.400
You have to have a means of returning the spirit

941
00:59:36.440 --> 00:59:40.039
to the metacausist and binding it from coming back. Otherwise,

942
00:59:41.119 --> 00:59:45.559
if it's affecting a particular family and you've succeeded in

943
00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:48.880
getting rid of it, down the street, another family is

944
00:59:48.920 --> 00:59:50.320
going to start getting affected by it.

945
00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:53.199
And that is a case that we've seen in the

946
00:59:53.239 --> 00:59:56.119
past where you know, in a obsessive spirit just moves

947
00:59:56.119 --> 00:59:59.480
from one individual to another individual, to another individual to

948
00:59:59.559 --> 01:00:03.480
another individual. If unless you know how to kind of

949
01:00:03.559 --> 01:00:06.360
like resolve that or you know, very often you may

950
01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:08.840
not know, you may not know that that's the case

951
01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:12.480
or what's happening. And so having the ability to be

952
01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:15.159
able to kind of ask the right questions or see

953
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:18.039
what's going on. And I'm sure you might have seen

954
01:00:18.079 --> 01:00:21.440
this kind of thing in your investigations, is that you know,

955
01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:23.679
you think you might have resolved something, but then all

956
01:00:23.679 --> 01:00:26.760
of a sudden it's turning up somewhere else, maybe even

957
01:00:26.760 --> 01:00:28.599
within the same location or.

958
01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:29.840
The same group of people.

959
01:00:31.159 --> 01:00:34.800
Yeah, for sure, all right, it is about that time

960
01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:36.800
to let you guys go. So I want to give

961
01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:40.000
you the chance to tell where people can find you

962
01:00:40.119 --> 01:00:42.440
find your books that Mike's all yours.

963
01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:47.280
Oh great. So we are published through Llewellyn will Buy

964
01:00:47.280 --> 01:00:51.559
public publications. You can find our book on Quiet Voices,

965
01:00:51.800 --> 01:00:54.920
The Magical Art of Laying Ghosts. It's available on Amazon

966
01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:56.880
on good Reads. We love it when you leave a

967
01:00:56.920 --> 01:01:01.840
positive review. We just love that. We do have a

968
01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:06.639
website it is Arcane Borders all one word dot com

969
01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:09.960
and an Instagram account which you can follow, which is

970
01:01:10.239 --> 01:01:16.119
Arcane dot Borders. Yeah, we're struggling a little bit to

971
01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:19.119
keep up with everything. We're just sort of surviving through

972
01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:21.320
the hurricane Halleen at the moment and getting back on

973
01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:25.840
our feet. But you know, we certainly do try to

974
01:01:25.880 --> 01:01:26.559
keep it up today.

975
01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:29.760
All right, all right, I'm gonna put you in limbo

976
01:01:29.880 --> 01:01:31.639
for a second so we can finish out the show

977
01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:34.679
and then we'll bring you back in to give you

978
01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:37.840
more information. So hold on for me, right all right, absolutely,

979
01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:43.000
all right, folks, I hope that you've enjoyed listening to

980
01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:46.320
Rob and Nonie Ducklow's talk about their book on Cuiet Voices,

981
01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:50.239
The Magical Art of Laying Ghosts. There is the cover

982
01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:55.039
for you if you're watching video. I think we say

983
01:01:55.079 --> 01:01:58.639
this way too often. The year has already.

984
01:01:58.280 --> 01:02:01.119
Been flying by.

985
01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:03.800
And next week is our Easter episode, so we're gonna

986
01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:06.960
have some fun with that. It's gonna be entitled The

987
01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:11.079
Magic of Easter, and then it's gonna be a couple

988
01:02:11.079 --> 01:02:13.960
of episodes of just Us before we bring more guests on,

989
01:02:14.079 --> 01:02:16.719
because we've got some topics that we want to talk

990
01:02:16.760 --> 01:02:19.320
about that I don't think I can find any books on.

991
01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:24.039
So make sure you like, share, subscribe. No matter where

992
01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:26.239
you listen, make sure you check out all of the

993
01:02:26.280 --> 01:02:31.760
shows that are on United Radio, United Public Radio Network,

994
01:02:32.239 --> 01:02:35.320
and this has been a preer recorder show for one

995
01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:37.840
of some points on FM New Orleans and United Public

996
01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:40.840
Radio Network until next week, folks, where you will find

997
01:02:40.920 --> 01:02:43.480
us the same time, same channel. My name is Justin

998
01:02:43.719 --> 01:02:45.320
and I'm Eric Pace.
Rob and Nonie Douglas Profile Photo
Rob and Nonie Douglas

Authors

Rob and Nonie Douglas have been studying the esoteric arts together for more than thirty years. Their recent book 'Unquiet Voices, the Magical Art of Laying Ghosts' has been described as a complete occult primer to understand, investigate and deal with restless spirits.