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Coming up on Paratruth re Born, we'll be talking to
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Dee Norman about her book, The Seekers Guide to Grimwore Magic. Welcome,
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Well do Paratrue. What's up everybody, and welcome to a
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brand new episode of Paratruth Reborn. My name is Eric
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and I'm justin and tonight we are talking with de
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Norman about grim wires, old magical texts, and making ancient
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magical practices from modern seekers. The Welcome to Paratruth. You're born.
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Hello, thank you, thanks for having me.
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Well, thank yous for before we get into grim ware.
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I know that's the big topic here, but could you
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tell our listeners a little bit about your background and
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how you first became interested in magic and spiritual practice. Yeah.
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Sure, I was kind of born into it. I grew
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up in an Italian American family. My grandmother came from
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southern Italy, or her family did, and I grew up
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with my mother and grandmother teaching me a variety of
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techniques to They won't call it magic, but it's magic.
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It's just the stuff we did to run our household,
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to protect the people that you love, to cure, cure
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people of the evil eye. Stuff like that, and I
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also grew up in a house that was haunted, and
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I loved books, and that drove me to the library
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to find out more, to try to figure out what
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was going on in my house. And of course, right
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adjacent to the paranormal section is the occult esoteric section,
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and that started to broaden my horizons outside of my
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family's practices. And then eventually I found reference to tarot
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cards and asked for some. I got some for Saint
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Nicholas Knight, and the rest is history. That just blew
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the gates wide open and introduced me to all kinds
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of magical concepts.
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Now, growing up in an Italian American family, did that
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shape the way that you understood magic today? Or was it?
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Like you said, they didn't talk about it in that sense.
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They really didn't talk about it in that sense when
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I was younger, And then as I got older in
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my thirties and started really questioning and comparing the things
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that I found in other materials or practices from other
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people that I knew, and started sharing that with my
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mother and grandmother. They'd still say, well, magic is what
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you do, but then they would start incorporating things that
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I discovered in their practices, and I got to watch
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some of that osmosis and change happened in their own
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personal practices based on what popular culture was doing, what
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neo paganism was doing, and so that was a really
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interesting experience for me. But magic was always that other
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thing that I did that the family stuff was not magic.
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Okay, And I remember our grandfather's side is Sicilian, and
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growing up, he'd always, you know, he's making dinner, he'd
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always go saw over and shoulder or do little things
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that at the time I didn't think anything of it,
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but you know, his mom sure did it, and it
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kind of grew with him. But you know, it's always
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been interesting that those of us in the European side
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over there, there is kind of for a lot of
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people some sort of magical reference within their families, whether
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they know it or not.
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Right people, it passes by people because it's not called
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out as magic. And I spent years questioning what my
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family did and did that count. Did I count as
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being raised in a magical tradition if it was not
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called magic? And I think that's what spurred me to
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write my first book, which was about Italian American magic,
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so that people could see it in print and know
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that this is a legitimate spiritual magical practice, even if
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it's not called that thing.
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Right right, Well, now you've been studying cardamancy for quite
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a while and working professional as a card reader since
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is it ninety five? I believe yes, how did you
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work with cards? Eventually connect to your study of Grimwire.
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So it's all of a piece. Basically, when you study Tiaro,
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that leads you to different magical organizations like the Golden Dawn.
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The Golden Dawn is heavily influenced by the Sacred Book
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of abermellin which is a famous Grimore. For example, McGregor Mathers,
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who is part of the Golden Dawn, translated the Key
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of Solomon, and so it's hard not to if you're
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interested in those types of magical organizations, loop around to
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the other things that they were interested in. That maybe
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wasn't part necessarily one hundred percent of the curriculum, or
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was only a small piece of the curriculum of that organization,
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but it was just too intriguing to pass up. So
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my first contact with the idea of Grimmore's really came
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from a fascination with the Hermitic order of the Golden Dawn.
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So it's interesting that you bring up that one thing
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led you into another thing in this particular field of study,
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because I think that's no matter where we go or
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what we do in the paranormal, it just keeps leading
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us to more and more. And has that kind of
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been the mindset for you that you always will dig deeper?
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Yes, I tell people two things. One I tell them
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I'm a perpetual student. I am constantly learning and I'm
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constantly exploring. And the other thing I tell them is
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that if you want a lifelong hobby, get involved, even
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in just a small fraction of the esoteric or the paranormal,
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because that will feed you for the rest of your
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life intellectually, because there's so much. It just never ends,
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and it does tend to branch out and connect to
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so many different topics and find yourself studying the oddest
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things sometimes in order to carry that back to your
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riginal topic of interest.
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It's really interesting how just the paranormal, the metaphysical, you know,
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the occult, how they do intertwine and the amount of
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information not only has pre existed us but continues to
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grow on topics that Jon and I have studied for
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twenty years now, you know what will come across an
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article or a book. It's like, oh, I've never heard
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about this. This is new, you know, and it's like
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it gives you a whole new spin on things, and
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it kind of pulls you back to like you know,
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early in your quote unquote what's called career or your
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practice or whatever it is. It's like, man, now I
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can take this and use it or apply it in
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a way that works today, you know, especially with some
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of this Grimwore stuff and magical practices, like some of
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it is outdated for modern people who are very techy
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and like to use magic via tech are trying to
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learn that type of thing. You know, they're like, well, wait,
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I got to light candles. I gotta do this, you know, think, oh, yeah,
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there's there's physical elements you know that that come to
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be with this. So it's always interesting, I think absolutely
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now regarding grimmore for for for listeners who have heard
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the word but maybe don't fully understand it, what exactly
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is a grid war.
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It's an easy word to misunderstand because a lot, like
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a lot of things with the paranormal and with the
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occult world, there's a multiple definitions, and it all depends
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on who you're speaking with. So in a general sense,
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the term grimwore can simply mean a book that has
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anything to do with magic, So that could be any
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book that has anything to do with the topic of magic.
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But in a stricter sense, a more narrow sense, grimore
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is a book on magic that teaches you a system
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of operations that allow you eventually to get in contact
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with non physical entities, whether those be planetary spirits, whether
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those be angels, demons, what have you. You're you're using
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a system of rituals to prepare your cell psychologically, physically,
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and purify yourself so that you can therefore command these
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external spirits. Some people think they're external, some people think
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they're features of your internal psychological landscape. That's that's a
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whole other debate. But it's written as though they are
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external forces.
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Okay.
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Well, And I think a lot of our ideas on
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the paranormal supernatural come from pop culture, like we think
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of likecus Pocus, where they had the grimoire made out
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of human skin and the eyeball moving around. And as
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much as I would love to think that that's what
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a grimoire was I don't think I've come across one
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that is like that. Now we were going to start
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to kind of get into the book here, because that's
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the whole reason you're here. What made you want to
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write this book about ancient grimoires.
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Well, it began when I was young. They fascinated me early.
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But back in the olden times, uh well, prior to
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the Internet, it was hard to get a hold of
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the actual text. You could find plenty of books that
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talked about the text that like, if you're an eleven
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year old kid growing up in Kentucky, it's kind of
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hard to get a copy even of The Key of Solomon,
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which you can go in order online today and have
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it shipped to your house, so lesser key. So it
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starts with his early fascination. And then as I got
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older and had access basically through a lot of online
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digital sources scans of manuscripts or translations that were up
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on websites on the earlier Internet, I really really got
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fascinated with it. But I was often discouraged from pursuing
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it as a style of magic to practically work myself,
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for a variety of reasons. Some people are practicing were like, oh,
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that's too Christian, leave it alone. Other people like that's
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too evil, leave it alone. I'm like, well, that's the dichotomy,
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is what that is? Like we got to make up
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our minds here, you know, and then also getting a
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message in a lot of cases like that's you're not
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the type of person to do that kind of magic.
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And so once I finally got over that barrier, which
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took quite a long time to do, so it is
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a book that I wanted to write to kind of
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throw the gates open for people who maybe didn't grow
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up in libraries like I did, who maybe weren't obsessed
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with books like I was, but who are curious about
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these older sources of knowledge and how they can interact
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with them, even if they might be in a different language,
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or even if there might be the information might be
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encoded in some way. I wanted to kind of invite
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people in, or it's always great to have someone at
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the doorway beckoning you into a topic, and I wanted
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to say, here's this amazing source of knowledge and exploration
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and enlightenment. Why don't you come in and check them out?
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Even if you know you don't feel like you're the
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right person to do it.
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You know. One day. A lot of people don't understand
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it nowadays, especially the inner generations, what it was like
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to go to a library and actually look for this
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kind of stuff. I remember when I was growing up,
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I was always looking at X files magazines because I
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was in my family. I would always watch the ex
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That was my first introduction really to the paranormal, aside
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from my unhaunted house. And when I wanted information, want
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to learn anything about the stuff that they were shown
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on X files at the library, you know, asking a
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person at the front desk or looking to the computer
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like is this in stock? And I was like, it's
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so easy nowadays to go online. And it's like, man,
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those are the kind of the days I kind of
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miss the library, and I'm like, it still exists, but
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it's hard to go, you know. It's the mentality is like, man,
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it's just right here, my fingertips out why you go
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to the library.
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But then you get those that are still absolutely dedicated
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to the library, because I know a lot of people
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here go to our local library a lot.
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Well. And one thing about you just kind of mentioned
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regarding remor magic and just magic in general, some saying
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it's too Christian, other thing is too evil. It's like,
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the one thing that I noticed, you know, over my
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studies is that typically when it comes to magic, it's
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something that you make your own. There is no right
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or wrong. There is no to Christian or too evil.
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There's you know, it's just is what your personality is
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and it works with you. You work it and adapt it
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to your own setting, which is all. You know. I
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always find very intrigued me because one person's let's say it,
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let's say a hedgewitch. One one headwitch is very different
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from another based on the practices that they're doing and
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the type of materials they're using and things like that,
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you know, and it kind of becomes this big melting
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pot of individuals and it's like you've learned so much
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when you read other people's grim wars for those who
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put them out. You know, there's a few people who
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authored grim wars and have us you know, publish them
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so that you can have kind of a guide here
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on megric practices, and you know a lot of them
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have notes and they're just like just snake it your own,
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you know, follow this ingredient list, but turn it into
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your own thing, and I think that's something it's confusing
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for people because they want I think a lot of
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people nowadays want like a straightforward like how do I
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do this? And it's like it's not always as numb
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worth Well.
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People often in question authenticity and if they're doing it
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right and is this the authentic way to do this?
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So that and I just tell them, I just ask
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is it working? Are you happy? Is your mind at peace?
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Are you getting what you want out of your magical
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and spiritual work? Then that's authentic enough for me. You
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don't have to go any further than that.
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Right now.
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I've thought about Grimore's a lot, obviously, being doing this
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for as long as I have. Why do you think
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Grimore's have felt inaccessible to the everyday seeker today?
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I think today in particular, part of the problem is is,
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you know, we hen call it the TV or mentality,
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and trust me, I have my to be read list,
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and I think that we are accustomed to bite sized,
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easily digestible information, and if we confront a text that
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is dense or difficult or takes extreme effort to get through,
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our first impulse is to turn away from it or
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to go, oh, maybe this is not for me because
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I can't blaze through it at the speed of light.
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And instead, I'd like to encourage people to look at
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it as this kind of learning process. You're learning the book,
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you're learning the structure of the book, you're learning how
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the information is presented, and you're teaching yourself how to
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be a consumer of that denser information. And when you
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start a new grimwore, it's always a challenge to first
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establish yourself and kind of get your footing. But I
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think that in our modern you know, we're very used
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to the convenient delivery of knowledge information, and I like
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to help people see the value of discovery and research
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and sitting with knowledge and ideas because then I think
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the reading of a grimwall the conflict and initiatory process
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instead of just a seeking knowledge.
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You know, one thing that I myself included at one point,
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but a lot of individuals that I've encountered who are
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new to magical practices or the occult, you know, one
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thing that they tend to do when they're looking at
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books is they judge a book by its cover. Uh,
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And sometimes you know, depending on their background, they'll look
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at it and like Oh this is scary, right, there's
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a pentagram on it that's devil. It's like, well, no, no, no,
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that's you know obviously, like they don't know, they're they're
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they there. They learn these things based on pop culture,
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which turn you know, the pentagram into something that was
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satanic versus something that was magical. Even the Christians use
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the pentagram at one point to represent the five Woods
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of Christ. And there's like a certain historical context behind
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these symbols that people don't realize and become scared and
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stand off. I should like I shouldn't open that it's
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dark and like invite something. So with that said, it
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has part of your goal in writing this book and
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sharing these things, uh, been, like the goal to remove
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the fear factor around grim wires and around magic in general.
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Definitely, my favorite thing to do is to introduce people
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who aren't familiar with working magic with working magic. But
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the thing is is that there are barriers to that process.
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So my book, my book is The Seeker's God to
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Grimmal Magic. It comes out it's published by Llewellyn. That
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means in a bookstore or a library, it's going in
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a particular section and it's going into the metaphysical, spirituality,
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magical sections that used to be called the occult section.
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They softened that terminology and a lot of bookstores recently,
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and that itself, just being in that section, that's a barrier.
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There's some people that will never walk into that section, willingly,
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just like there are some people that will never pick
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up a books with a pentagram on the front. And
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you know, I think that what happens to people.
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Is a fact fascination, even if they feel like maybe
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it's not quite right, or maybe it's a little bit daring,
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what happens is a fascination and they can't get an
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image or a concept or a book out of their head.
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And then they progress and they will dig a little
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bit more, and then they read a little bit more,
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and then they dig a little bit more. So you know,
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I think people come to these concepts in different ways,
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but that you know, it is really hard sometimes to
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engage with people who are completely you know, have never
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had contact with any magical practice before, because there are
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those barriers.
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Now just talking to you and even looking through the
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book and reading through the book, it's very obvious that
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you have a kind of a sense of humor and
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also a sense of practicality when it comes to your
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working to this book as well. Why is that important
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to you? I mean it's important to us so for
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this show because we joke all the time because we
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feel it shouldn't be taken like so seriously. But what
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from your perspective, what is it?
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I don't know what I would be without my sense
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of humor.
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It's the thing.
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It's the thing that keeps me going. It's the thing
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that keeps my ego and check. It's the thing that
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helps me connect with people. And you know, you have
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to I think engaging in magical practices in a lot
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of time cases, you have to be able to have
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a humorous view of yourself. Anybody who's going to get
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dressed up in a robe and cast a circle with
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a sword and light a bunch of candles and chant
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funny words out loud with all of the heart and
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gusts so that they can put into it, like you
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can't take yourself too seriously because literally that way lies madness.
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Like you have to do it, I think with a
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sense of humor and with an eye to the practical too,
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Because a lot of what we read in older text
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especially and in that we see sometimes in social media
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with these very very complex, uh setups that people do,
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and they're so esthetically pleasing and they're so beautiful, and
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that causes a lot of people to go, well, then
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I guess magic's not for me, because there's no way
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that I'm going to have an altar setup like that,
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and there's no way that I'm going to be doing
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all these complex things. And I can hear my grandma
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in the back of my head going, yeah, you don't
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need that, you know, you can, like, who needs that?
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You know, We've we've got salt, we've got olive oil,
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we've got a white candle. Let's let's do something, let's
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make it happen.
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Yeah. So, let's say somebody gets to the end of
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this book, they finish the book completely. What do you
360
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hope a reader feels after completing your book?
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Like all my books, what I hope they feel is empowered.
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What I hope they feel is that they can take
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the knowledge that is in the book that works for
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them and do things with it. That's really vague, but
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seriously to whatever they wish to do, do they want
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to delve further into Grimwore magic, armed with these basics
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that are in my book awesome. Do they just want
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to use what they've learned to inform the practices that
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they're already doing fantastic? Do they want to use it
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as inspirations to write a novel? Amazing? Like, whatever the
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desire is, I hope that whoever shuts the cover on
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the book at the end feels empowered to do something
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news whatever's next?
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Now?
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We talked about this earlier about how people get their
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ideas about the word grimoire being kind of from a
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Hollywood say, occultism. It's a forbidden book, it's it's dangerous.
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What do people what do people usually get wrong when
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it comes to grim waters?
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Hmmm? I think what they get wrong is that, uh
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they're too hard, Uh, that that there's too many barriers
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between the knowledge and the book and themselves, and that
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they're therefore incapable of engaging with them in a meaningful way.
384
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I think that's the thing because of course, the pop
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culture and it has built this idea of these very
386
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:44.680
very formidable books. I mean, have you seen the Ninth Gate?
387
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:49.960
Like that you know that that unleash all of this
388
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:52.319
uh you know, power, and that you have to be
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00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.519
very very skilled and knowledgeable before you even approach that.
390
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And and my answer to that is is that you know,
391
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everything's a little bit risky. Magic itself is a little
392
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bit risky. Esoteric practices are risky, and you have to
393
00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:11.319
be a little bit daring. And you don't have to
394
00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:14.920
necessarily pass these books by because you think that they're
395
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:19.319
beyond you, because as a human on this planet, they're
396
00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:24.319
part of your magical, occult, esoteric heritage, and so you
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should be able to explore them.
398
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:31.240
Okay, there's something I thought about earlier and kind of
399
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:34.839
got away from the topic. But I think one thing
400
00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:38.640
that people kind of confuse is the idea of a
401
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:43.559
grimoire versus a book of shadows. Can you share your
402
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:45.160
thoughts on them a little bit, because I know there
403
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.920
are some crossover, but there's also some differences between the two.
404
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.079
Correct. Yeah, Well, if you think of Grimore's as just
405
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:57.079
books of magic, any any kind of magic, then yeah,
406
00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.359
then a book of shadows is a kind of more.
407
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:04.920
But books of shadows usually carry the connotation that they're
408
00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:09.440
a personal record of the spells, correspondences magical work of
409
00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:13.079
an individual or a group of individuals, So it Covin
410
00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:14.359
may have a book of shadows.
411
00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:14.720
That's all.
412
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:18.119
They're recognized magical spells that have been tried and true
413
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and their magical practices that have worked and that they
414
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know bear results. And individuals maintain books like that too.
415
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Some people call it their magical journal. Some people call
416
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it a book of shadows. Book of shadows is a
417
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:35.480
fairly recent term. I think it was coined in the fifties,
418
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:40.559
so you know, before then, they were called books of secrets,
419
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and they contained individual pieces of information that were important
420
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for esoteric practices as well as secrets of different professions
421
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:53.920
like perfumery and medicine too. And you'll find this lovely
422
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:59.400
combination in early books of secrets of medicine and magic
423
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:04.359
and religion, religious practices and all kinds of things combined
424
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in one text. So it's a book of shadows. Is
425
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often like a commonplace book of a personal collection of
426
00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:17.559
works that were for an individual.
427
00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:20.559
Or for a group. Okay, thank you for sharing that.
428
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:23.559
I know it's something that I personally have confused. I've
429
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:25.119
looked it up in the past, but a seconds something
430
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:26.960
I would always confuse me to. That's like, what is
431
00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:28.960
am I writing a gridmore? Or am I writing a
432
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:31.079
book of shadows. You know what am I doing?
433
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:36.880
You're you're writing whatever you want, whatever you want.
434
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:41.160
Now, a part of the book is like unlocking secrets
435
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.799
from old texts. But Grimore's can be old or new.
436
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:48.119
So what's the difference or is there a difference?
437
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:51.200
Well, we ended up calling it the Secrets Guide to
438
00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:55.720
grimore Magic, probably because you know, Llewellen thought probably the
439
00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:58.160
Secrets Guide to Old Texts would probably just the title
440
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:01.839
alone would pay everybody to sleep. So what I was
441
00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:05.680
really focusing on was historical texts in that in the
442
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.799
particular book, like my focus was on Grimore's, but also
443
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.000
a variety of other things like talismans and how to
444
00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:16.759
decode talismans because that can be considered a magical text
445
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:23.240
as well. You know, uh, paper talismans, jewelry, Himmel briefs,
446
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:27.079
letters from heaven that you know, provide safe passage for
447
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:31.599
someone in protection, all of those things. And I cannot
448
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:35.279
believe my dogs are behind only right now, And I apologize.
449
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:37.279
It's so you should see that our show is family
450
00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:43.400
friendly or pet friendly. So yeah, we call them the cryptids,
451
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:47.359
but I used to call our dogs the hell hounds.
452
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:49.920
Now we were down to one hell hound, but he's
453
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:50.960
still alone.
454
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:52.799
Yeah, I'll be I'll be sitting here and you'll see
455
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:55.440
a little black cat tail come past my screen or
456
00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:57.680
little ears pop out.
457
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:04.359
It's not good, and no one's grumbling at me.
458
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:04.880
That's great.
459
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:10.799
He probably wants out. So, uh, what was I talking about?
460
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:11.319
Oh?
461
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:14.279
God, the difference between old and new Grimwald.
462
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:16.839
Yeah, so there's a lot of different.
463
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:22.519
You know, you're trying to talk.
464
00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:26.480
The family's conspiring against me. There's a lot of different
465
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:30.559
older texts. They all take different shapes and forms. A
466
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:32.920
lot of them can be decoded magically, and that's a
467
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:35.200
thing that also fascinated me when I was younger. You
468
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.759
go into a metaphysical shop, you find a talisman with
469
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:41.359
all kinds of stuff engraved on. What does all that mean?
470
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:44.480
And and the literature that comes with it doesn't fully
471
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:47.279
describe what all that means. So that's why at the
472
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:50.079
end of the book there is a full chapter that
473
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:53.440
is about decoding what I have around my neck. Catherine
474
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:57.359
de Mediciese talisman that she was famous for having and wearing,
475
00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:00.559
so you know, that's not the only reason she was famous,
476
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:04.039
of course, but it's a famed talisman let's say, so
477
00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:08.960
I focused on the old because yeah, modern Grimore. Modern
478
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.519
Grimore being written every day, and that's fantastic. And some
479
00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:16.720
of them are based off older text and some of
480
00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:20.079
them are completely new and innovative, and all this is wonderful.
481
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.119
They want to talk to that they have, they have
482
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:28.079
their own say.
483
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:31.119
Apparently you have familiars as well as a Grimoire.
484
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:34.920
So that's that's pretty vinegar, Tom, and that's the one
485
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:37.799
that's making all the noise, and I'm.
486
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:39.880
Going to shout for help for someone to take him
487
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:40.519
a little.
488
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:46.279
Well the while she's doing that. The one thing I
489
00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:49.480
think is fascinating about this is the ruins on the cover.
490
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:53.839
But do you also talk about ruins a little bit?
491
00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:57.319
So I'm fascinated that you include a lot of different
492
00:28:57.440 --> 00:28:59.680
parts to Grimoire's in this book.
493
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:05.240
So I tried to. It's hard because and I think
494
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:08.279
I've maybe drove my editor a little bit crazy. I
495
00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:10.880
wanted everything, and you want to you know, you can't
496
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:13.160
have a comprehensive book, but I sure would have liked
497
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:16.920
to have a comprehensive book that provided people with a
498
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:23.279
little good taste of everything. A buffet approach because a
499
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:27.319
lot of times. Our first introduction to something is how
500
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:31.359
we think all versions of that thing is. You know,
501
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:33.720
you go to a taro reader for the first time,
502
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:36.079
they do particular things. You think that's the way tarror
503
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.680
reading is done, until you go to another one and
504
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.599
you find out that they do it a little bit different.
505
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:42.880
And I have a different approach. And it's the same
506
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:45.839
way with introducing someone to a type of book or
507
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:49.839
a type of text, you know. And I have a
508
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:52.480
friend of mine that asked me. They were like, I
509
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.599
read your book, what about Icelandic Grimors? And I'm like,
510
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:56.839
I don't know enough about Icelandic Grimores to even write
511
00:29:56.839 --> 00:30:01.279
about Icelandic Grimore. So I'm sorry I had to. I51200:30:01.319 --> 00:30:06.880
had to cut it off somewhere. But magical alphabets, I'm51300:30:06.960 --> 00:30:11.279
hugely fascinated with dead languages. I'm fascinated with and so51400:30:11.359 --> 00:30:13.519
I liked I like to include as much of that51500:30:13.599 --> 00:30:14.359
as possible.51600:30:16.599 --> 00:30:20.519
All right, So real quick, we're going to take a51700:30:20.559 --> 00:30:23.480
quick break here. We're gonna hear a quick cord from51800:30:23.480 --> 00:30:26.720
our sponsor, so we'll be right back everybody in about51900:30:26.759 --> 00:30:27.799
thirty seconds.52000:30:28.319 --> 00:30:31.559
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So I'm still trying to figure out how to throw53100:31:19.160 --> 00:31:21.839
those minerals and it's new for us. I'm like, this53200:31:21.920 --> 00:31:25.119
is gonna be weird. You're stelling this in here, but okay, try.53300:31:25.599 --> 00:31:27.480
That's why it's in our little script here.53400:31:27.720 --> 00:31:29.240
I know I know that, but I'm like, how do53500:31:29.279 --> 00:31:31.279
I transition from this, because like, I just want to53600:31:31.319 --> 00:31:37.559
keep going. So I mean, yeah, I think i'd have53700:31:37.599 --> 00:31:40.200
to say like or I would imagine that writing a53800:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.160
book like this is very difficult in the sense of53900:31:42.200 --> 00:31:44.680
how much you want to put in there, but potentially54000:31:44.680 --> 00:31:46.880
being limited on how much you can put in there54100:31:46.920 --> 00:31:50.720
based on page count or whatever your publisher is allowing54200:31:50.839 --> 00:31:52.960
and here my cat's luck to walk right by. Here54300:31:54.880 --> 00:31:58.279
here goes the tale. No wait non, he laid down,54400:31:59.279 --> 00:32:03.480
said he's gonna land the keyboard. So I do find54500:32:03.519 --> 00:32:05.480
that very interesting because I can imagine there's a lot54600:32:05.519 --> 00:32:07.559
more that maybe you want to share in this book54700:32:07.559 --> 00:32:11.720
that you haven't had the opportunity to do yet. So54800:32:11.759 --> 00:32:14.000
would you is that something that you think about, like, oh,54900:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.440
there's going maybe I'll do a second book, or maybe55000:32:16.519 --> 00:32:19.000
when I do a second version, I will update it55100:32:19.799 --> 00:32:20.640
with more information.55200:32:21.440 --> 00:32:23.440
I would like to write another book at some point55300:32:23.640 --> 00:32:28.880
and cover some things. I had an experience after writing55400:32:28.880 --> 00:32:31.920
the book spending so much time writing, I went, man,55500:32:32.240 --> 00:32:35.440
I you know my practice has suffered, has spent so55600:32:35.519 --> 00:32:38.160
much time to hear at my desk and not doing55700:32:38.240 --> 00:32:42.400
magical work. And so a month or two after I55800:32:42.440 --> 00:32:46.559
finished writing the book, I did a really for me55900:32:47.119 --> 00:32:52.000
challenging multi day ritual, the longest and most intensive one56000:32:52.000 --> 00:32:54.759
that I have done, repeating the same ritual every morning,56100:32:55.119 --> 00:32:57.400
first thing in the morning, for multiple days in a row.56200:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.000
And then my experience was like when it was done56300:33:00.279 --> 00:33:03.079
and I have this amazing experience, I was like, wow,56400:33:03.279 --> 00:33:05.119
that would be great to have been able to include56500:33:05.119 --> 00:33:06.680
in the book, but I was kind of doing it56600:33:06.720 --> 00:33:09.559
as a cata stone to finish writing the book. So56700:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.519
there's you know, there's always more. And then of course56800:33:13.519 --> 00:33:15.759
there's also historical topics that I would have loved to56900:33:15.799 --> 00:33:19.599
have covered that didn't get to cover in the depths57000:33:19.720 --> 00:33:23.039
that I would have liked. So hopefully there will be57100:33:23.039 --> 00:33:24.000
another one eventually.57200:33:26.079 --> 00:33:28.319
That's the ultimate goal, though, is to keep going.57300:33:28.480 --> 00:33:32.920
So do you when it comes to historical context, do57400:33:32.960 --> 00:33:36.119
you think that's like something that's very important when it57500:33:36.160 --> 00:33:39.319
comes to a practice or learning something like I was57600:33:39.319 --> 00:33:42.960
thinking earlier about their necklace. You and I see a57700:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.960
lot of people wearing things that they probably have no57800:33:46.039 --> 00:33:49.039
idea what it means, what it represents. And in times57900:33:49.039 --> 00:33:50.440
that I've asked people like you know what that is?58000:33:50.759 --> 00:33:52.400
You know, and it's like most people don't know. They58100:33:52.400 --> 00:33:53.720
just see it and they think it's cool, or they58200:33:53.759 --> 00:33:56.440
hear about it from somebody, you know, and it's like58300:33:56.440 --> 00:33:59.359
a lot information is a little askew. Let me tell58400:33:59.400 --> 00:34:04.119
you the reasonably right or why it exists. How important58500:34:04.240 --> 00:34:08.440
is historical context behind a certain element, and does historical58600:34:08.440 --> 00:34:12.199
contents actually change the modern interpretation, sorry, the modern interpretation58700:34:12.679 --> 00:34:13.360
of the magic.58800:34:14.360 --> 00:34:17.079
I can talk about this through experience because when I58900:34:17.199 --> 00:34:20.320
was fifteen, this girl in my high school had this59000:34:20.519 --> 00:34:24.599
awesome necklace that looked so witchy andficulty, and I was like,59100:34:25.480 --> 00:34:27.599
I want one of those, and she said, hey, there's59200:34:27.599 --> 00:34:30.960
a kiosk at the mall, you know, And I was59300:34:31.039 --> 00:34:32.840
like awesome. So the next time I was at the mall,59400:34:32.840 --> 00:34:34.400
I showed it to my mom. I was like begged,59500:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.559
and my Mom's like, okay, sure, and it it's this59600:34:36.760 --> 00:34:41.119
astrological talisman. Is how the little cardboard standy was labeled.59700:34:41.119 --> 00:34:43.440
And I got one for Gemini because I'm a Gemini59800:34:43.480 --> 00:34:44.599
and I wore that thing.59900:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.840
I'm a Gemini too, Yes.60000:34:46.719 --> 00:34:51.679
Gemini was represent I wore that thing every day from60100:34:51.679 --> 00:34:55.119
like sophomore year of high school through part of college.60200:34:55.679 --> 00:34:59.519
And then I got excited once because I found the design.60300:34:59.639 --> 00:35:02.559
So little pamphlet said this is everything that has to60400:35:02.599 --> 00:35:08.159
do with Geminis, represents all their traits. I'm like cool, no, no, no, no.60500:35:08.440 --> 00:35:11.400
It was this signal for bellis one of the gaetia.60600:35:12.360 --> 00:35:15.119
When I walked around with the cigal for Bellas around60700:35:15.119 --> 00:35:20.159
my neck for about six years, and I write about60800:35:20.199 --> 00:35:22.960
that in the book. But one of the techniques that60900:35:23.039 --> 00:35:25.800
I write about in the book too, is about repurposing61000:35:25.960 --> 00:35:32.039
that you can charge a symbol with your own intent, interests,61100:35:32.079 --> 00:35:36.199
and impressions and change the meaning of that symbol to61200:35:36.280 --> 00:35:40.159
a greater, lesser can extent. I feel as though that61300:35:40.360 --> 00:35:43.440
became a huge I still will wear a Bellath necklace61400:35:43.519 --> 00:35:46.440
as a protection charm, even if I have not worked61500:35:46.440 --> 00:35:53.239
with Bellis. Sorry, Bellis, because I rebuilt that in my psyche,61600:35:53.679 --> 00:35:58.400
in my aura, with my energy that it became different61700:35:58.400 --> 00:36:01.519
for me, it became something else. So then you find61800:36:01.519 --> 00:36:05.480
yourself at a very strange crossroads of your personal practice,61900:36:06.320 --> 00:36:08.960
respect for the original culture from which a symbol or62000:36:08.960 --> 00:36:12.760
an image came, and the idea of cultural appropriation and62100:36:13.199 --> 00:36:16.639
how to approach images and symbols respectfully. So would I62200:36:16.760 --> 00:36:19.719
teach people to wear a bell A pendant as of62300:36:19.760 --> 00:36:23.840
just a protective symbol for geminized heaven Snow? Does it62400:36:23.960 --> 00:36:26.960
work like that for me individually privately in my practice?62500:36:26.960 --> 00:36:29.159
And will I wear one under my shirt where people62600:36:29.199 --> 00:36:30.719
can't see it when I feel like you need a62700:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.360
little boost of confidence or protection. Heck yes, yeah, because62800:36:34.400 --> 00:36:38.239
I've repurposed that entire image into something else.62900:36:40.519 --> 00:36:42.639
And for a context, if you don't mind me sharing,63000:36:42.639 --> 00:36:46.079
frou belleth is but one of the kings of how63100:36:46.440 --> 00:36:49.000
that were summoned as one of the seventy two demons63200:36:49.920 --> 00:36:52.280
in the Lesser Key of Solomon. So for those of63300:36:52.320 --> 00:36:53.760
you very curious to.63400:36:53.679 --> 00:36:56.360
It is, so it's very I hear the hell hounds63500:36:56.360 --> 00:36:58.159
bellowing in the background.63600:36:58.519 --> 00:36:58.599
So.63700:37:00.280 --> 00:37:03.960
I would imagine it was very like wow when you63800:37:04.000 --> 00:37:05.599
when you learned what it was, and.63900:37:05.960 --> 00:37:10.679
I felt such triumph yet such embarrassment, like I am64000:37:10.719 --> 00:37:12.800
too good to have done this. I should have done64100:37:12.800 --> 00:37:15.239
my homework. But you know, it never occurred to me64200:37:15.320 --> 00:37:17.440
at the time. I was just excited to have the cool,64300:37:17.440 --> 00:37:18.000
witchy look.64400:37:18.079 --> 00:37:22.400
Intendent you know, it's funny because I get a lot64500:37:22.440 --> 00:37:26.800
of or I've had a lot of interactions, especially with Christians. Uh,64600:37:26.800 --> 00:37:30.960
And let me differently, I wouldn't say Christians as in64700:37:31.000 --> 00:37:33.599
the modern understanding of Christians, but like Christians who are64800:37:33.599 --> 00:37:37.239
within the paranormal parameters, they're into the clock, They're they're64900:37:37.320 --> 00:37:41.039
kind of in this circle. But everything is evil. Everything65000:37:41.079 --> 00:37:43.480
is evil, you know, And it's like I remember being65100:37:43.519 --> 00:37:47.320
I was in this one chat on Facebook and somebody asked, like,65200:37:47.480 --> 00:37:50.480
Cannie is a symbol evil in and of itself. And65300:37:50.519 --> 00:37:52.880
I chimed here and I said, no, it is. I65400:37:52.920 --> 00:37:54.760
don't I personally don't think it is. I think you65500:37:54.840 --> 00:37:57.440
have to put power behind that symbol in order for65600:37:57.519 --> 00:38:01.400
it to become evil or good or whatever. And they65700:38:01.480 --> 00:38:04.400
just started swinging nice are out everybody telling me, I'm65800:38:04.400 --> 00:38:08.159
not a true Christian. I'm not this, I'm not like Okay, well,65900:38:09.039 --> 00:38:12.280
you know this is where like people, it comes down to,66000:38:12.519 --> 00:38:17.280
I guess, personal understanding and their interpretation, belief systems, et cetera.66100:38:18.280 --> 00:38:20.920
But you know, if I were to sit here right,66200:38:21.159 --> 00:38:25.119
For example, an inverted cross Hollywood may be inverted cross66300:38:25.159 --> 00:38:27.559
something that was supposed to be Satanic was seeming in66400:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.760
the Exorcism the crosses turn upside down. But then in66500:38:30.800 --> 00:38:34.800
the Christian text we see that the apostle Peter was66600:38:34.840 --> 00:38:38.280
crucified upside down as a symbol of humility because he66700:38:38.280 --> 00:38:40.199
didn't want to be critified the same way as Jesus.66800:38:40.800 --> 00:38:44.760
So we're seeing two very different, you know, symbols here66900:38:44.800 --> 00:38:47.280
of what it represents, one being humility, the other day say,67000:38:47.360 --> 00:38:49.519
and it's like, that's how quick and how easy it67100:38:49.559 --> 00:38:53.519
is for symbols to be misinterpreted or misunderstood, and it67200:38:53.519 --> 00:38:55.639
really comes down to the power behind it because they67300:38:55.639 --> 00:38:59.800
can both be interchangeably as good and bad. We see67400:38:59.800 --> 00:39:00.199
that that.67500:39:00.599 --> 00:39:05.599
Really agreed agreed, and it becomes you know, interesting to67600:39:06.000 --> 00:39:08.960
look at a symbol and decide, like, think of the67700:39:09.039 --> 00:39:12.239
power that it wields, just because of the associations that67800:39:12.280 --> 00:39:15.360
it has with people psychologically versus what it what it67900:39:15.440 --> 00:39:20.400
represents on its own. There's a lot of variation there.68000:39:21.559 --> 00:39:27.440
Human nature to fear what we don't understand now for68100:39:27.920 --> 00:39:30.559
magic in generally, even when it comes to grim wars.68200:39:31.440 --> 00:39:33.599
And I've asked people a lot of people this question68300:39:33.840 --> 00:39:39.760
that are magical practitioners, what role does intuition have in68400:39:39.920 --> 00:39:42.559
working with magic?68500:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.280
I think that you can, well, first of all, I68600:39:46.280 --> 00:39:48.800
think everybody has intuition. Some people ask me, I'm like,68700:39:48.960 --> 00:39:53.360
you know, do another one. I'm like yeah. But I68800:39:53.400 --> 00:39:56.559
think that it's developed a different to different degreees from68900:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.519
individuals individually. You can work magic without a lot of69000:39:59.559 --> 00:40:02.440
intuity and foot I don't know how successful you will be.69100:40:02.480 --> 00:40:06.000
You can work out and be great, but I think69200:40:06.039 --> 00:40:10.840
even in written spells that you're going to follow, it69300:40:11.039 --> 00:40:14.360
helps to listen to your intuition and to the associations69400:40:14.360 --> 00:40:16.719
that you have with what is in what you're in69500:40:16.800 --> 00:40:18.960
stressed to you, like, if something tells you to use69600:40:19.039 --> 00:40:21.239
cinnamon and you hate sermon because it reminds you of69700:40:21.280 --> 00:40:25.000
something bad. Please don't need cinemen, need something else. You know,69800:40:25.119 --> 00:40:27.559
if something makes you feel bad and you don't know69900:40:27.719 --> 00:40:31.719
why a symbol, a shape and a part of the70000:40:31.880 --> 00:40:34.320
that you have to say, well, we better figure out70100:40:34.360 --> 00:40:36.639
why it makes you feel bad before you try to70200:40:36.760 --> 00:40:39.559
use it to wield power, because it will leap in70300:40:39.639 --> 00:40:43.480
your ability. And so I think that intuition plays a70400:40:43.559 --> 00:40:46.719
huge role, but people have to stop it and not70500:40:46.840 --> 00:40:49.079
only listen to your intuition but also act on it70600:40:49.119 --> 00:40:53.280
and make adjustments. Is necessary because the the more they70700:40:53.320 --> 00:40:57.079
are psychologically and spiritually in line with whatever the magical70800:40:57.119 --> 00:40:58.440
work is, the more successful.70900:41:00.079 --> 00:41:07.400
Okay, but now, is there a difference between adapting a71000:41:07.480 --> 00:41:10.440
practice and simply stripping it from its meeting?71100:41:11.920 --> 00:41:14.519
I think so. I mean you can get to the71200:41:14.559 --> 00:41:19.280
point where a spell or ritual has been changed so71300:41:19.480 --> 00:41:25.760
much that it, you know, is barely recognizable and you've71400:41:25.840 --> 00:41:29.719
kind of lost the plot. And that could be good,71500:41:29.760 --> 00:41:33.440
and it can be bad if you're relying on it71600:41:33.519 --> 00:41:36.320
adhering at least in part to its original intent, then71700:41:36.400 --> 00:41:38.800
that can be a difficult. You know, if you were71800:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.960
using it to riff off of to create something wholly new,71900:41:42.119 --> 00:41:45.119
then that's amazing. You know, it depends on what your72000:41:45.119 --> 00:41:48.000
intent is and what you hope. You know, you could72100:41:48.039 --> 00:41:50.440
just if you like a structure of a ritual, you72200:41:50.480 --> 00:41:52.840
can strip all the content out and just use that72300:41:52.880 --> 00:41:56.960
outliner structure in order to build something new and modern72400:41:57.000 --> 00:42:03.079
for yourself. You're still being inspired by older works, historical works,72500:42:03.119 --> 00:42:05.920
but you're really taking it in a completely different direction,72600:42:06.440 --> 00:42:09.559
and it gets weirder and weirder and more abstract as72700:42:09.599 --> 00:42:09.920
you go.72800:42:13.519 --> 00:42:16.960
Now, you talk about talisman's in the book, and you've72900:42:17.159 --> 00:42:21.519
even mentioned it here. What makes talismans such a powerful73000:42:21.519 --> 00:42:22.840
part of Grimar magic?73100:42:24.400 --> 00:42:28.840
Well, I think so many focus on what we consider talisman,73200:42:28.880 --> 00:42:32.599
the pentacles of the of the Lesser Key or the73300:42:32.639 --> 00:42:35.960
Greater Key for example, and the symbols that are used73400:42:36.559 --> 00:42:40.239
with the goatia in the in the Lesser Key. And73500:42:40.960 --> 00:42:44.480
you know, it was a fascinating part of finding actual73600:42:44.559 --> 00:42:47.360
scans of these manuscripts to see these drawings for me73700:42:47.400 --> 00:42:52.239
when I was younger, and it it's the practical piece.73800:42:52.480 --> 00:42:54.440
In a lot of cases, it's you do all this73900:42:54.559 --> 00:42:59.000
work to contact these entities, to purify yourself, to prepare yourself,74000:42:59.039 --> 00:43:00.960
and then you can contact these entities and then you74100:43:01.039 --> 00:43:07.199
can use these talismans, design seals, signals to accomplish what74200:43:07.239 --> 00:43:09.480
it is you want to accomplish, whether that is a74300:43:09.639 --> 00:43:13.039
union with the Godhead, or whether that is finding treasure,74400:43:13.440 --> 00:43:16.000
or whether that is getting in the pants of the74500:43:16.039 --> 00:43:19.280
person that you are most attracted to. There's there's all74600:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.400
kinds of different talismans out there that can be used74700:43:23.840 --> 00:43:26.239
and and you know, and it goes to you know,74800:43:26.280 --> 00:43:28.599
their portable. You can wear them. You can carry that74900:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.719
piece of magic with you for whatever purposes you have.75000:43:33.480 --> 00:43:40.039
Now, Eric's got a talisman that he absolutely loves, which75100:43:40.280 --> 00:43:45.960
is a I believe wolf pendant, and it's made out75200:43:46.000 --> 00:43:46.679
of obsidian.75300:43:47.000 --> 00:43:50.519
Yes, right, is there one that you.75400:43:50.400 --> 00:43:54.280
Particularly enjoy wearing more than others?75500:43:56.079 --> 00:44:01.639
Well, there's this one. It's already brought up too, Medici's talisman.75600:44:01.960 --> 00:44:06.760
It's fascinated me probably for thirty years, and I've spent75700:44:06.840 --> 00:44:10.000
lots of time investigating the different symbols on it and75800:44:10.039 --> 00:44:14.079
what they mean. And I have such a love for75900:44:14.119 --> 00:44:16.800
this thing because of its sheer complexity and the amount76000:44:16.840 --> 00:44:19.199
of imagery on it, and some of the imagery comes76100:44:19.199 --> 00:44:23.079
from some of the oldest grimoires. The main figures on76200:44:23.199 --> 00:44:26.960
both sides of the talisman come from the Pickatrix, which76300:44:27.000 --> 00:44:29.480
is one of the granddaddy grimoars that have been you know,76400:44:29.599 --> 00:44:32.960
we have evidence of it going back, you know, I76500:44:32.960 --> 00:44:38.400
think to the thirteenth century. And I love it for76600:44:38.440 --> 00:44:41.360
its complexity, and I love it because nobody knows exactly76700:44:41.400 --> 00:44:44.280
what everything on it means. And to me, that means76800:44:44.280 --> 00:44:46.960
that the mystery is alive, the intrigue is there, and76900:44:47.119 --> 00:44:50.320
there's different ways that you can explore it, both academically77000:44:50.320 --> 00:44:54.960
and historically and magically to find out more about it.77100:44:55.320 --> 00:44:57.599
So I love an unsolved mystery.77200:44:57.880 --> 00:45:02.320
Okay whatever. People who actually see like an old talisman77300:45:02.400 --> 00:45:04.199
or a new one for that pattern, have no idea77400:45:04.480 --> 00:45:07.639
what they're looking at. Where should they really beget their77500:45:07.679 --> 00:45:09.800
search on trying to figure out what it is how77600:45:09.840 --> 00:45:10.239
to use it.77700:45:10.760 --> 00:45:14.519
The first thing is to get organized. The thing I77800:45:14.559 --> 00:45:17.199
recommend to folks is to write down all the different77900:45:17.239 --> 00:45:20.800
elements or redraw all the different elements and number them,78000:45:21.679 --> 00:45:25.079
and then go through and start to identify what you78100:45:25.159 --> 00:45:27.400
can if you can, if there's a phrase on it78200:45:27.480 --> 00:45:29.639
that is in a language you understand or that you78300:45:29.719 --> 00:45:34.280
can translate, and machine translations really improved these days, so78400:45:34.320 --> 00:45:38.480
you can, you know, use different translation software, and then78500:45:38.679 --> 00:45:42.159
you start the hard part is paging through the old78600:45:42.199 --> 00:45:45.760
texts and trying to well you learn about the history78700:45:45.760 --> 00:45:49.000
of the background of the talisman if you possibly can,78800:45:49.119 --> 00:45:52.519
so that you can start looking into older magical texts78900:45:52.559 --> 00:45:55.760
from that area and that time period, so that you79000:45:55.800 --> 00:45:58.960
can start picking out with the individual little weird squiggly79100:45:59.039 --> 00:46:02.400
shapes on the talent them means and sparat looking up79200:46:02.519 --> 00:46:05.920
what they what they mean individually and potentially what they79300:46:05.960 --> 00:46:10.559
mean in conjunction with each other. Yeah, and it's not79400:46:10.599 --> 00:46:13.159
a fast process. It's and it's one you can pick79500:46:13.239 --> 00:46:16.840
up and work on and then leave and then come79600:46:16.880 --> 00:46:18.840
back years later and work on some more. And when79700:46:18.840 --> 00:46:22.599
I was writing about this Catherine de Medici's Talisman, I79800:46:22.639 --> 00:46:24.920
found out new things that I got to include in79900:46:24.960 --> 00:46:27.320
the book that I hadn't noticed about the talisman before.80000:46:28.119 --> 00:46:31.760
So you know, it's none of this is fast, but80100:46:31.840 --> 00:46:34.679
it's edifying and satisfying.80200:46:33.960 --> 00:46:37.800
To do well. And I'll argue like, it's very important80300:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.280
to strip down the elements of it and figure out80400:46:40.280 --> 00:46:43.599
what each one mean individually before figured out what they80500:46:43.639 --> 00:46:47.960
all mean together, especially in the sense like we think80600:46:48.000 --> 00:46:51.679
about modern times of modern tech. You can take a80700:46:51.679 --> 00:46:55.039
picture of a talisman or anything and do a Google80800:46:55.079 --> 00:46:57.679
search or ask Gemini, and it'll give you a list80900:46:57.719 --> 00:47:00.239
of information of all this stuff. But then when you81000:47:00.239 --> 00:47:02.519
look at the links that that information is derived from,81100:47:02.559 --> 00:47:04.559
you start to realize that a lot of that information81200:47:04.679 --> 00:47:09.159
is either false or it's misstaken, misidentified. Things are just81300:47:09.199 --> 00:47:12.320
not correct. And I think it could be used as81400:47:12.320 --> 00:47:15.000
a good starting point, but I think for a lot81500:47:15.039 --> 00:47:16.840
of people, my self recruiting, because I fail at it.81600:47:17.000 --> 00:47:18.840
I do it all the time more than I like81700:47:18.880 --> 00:47:21.159
to admit. You know, I'll look at something and I'll81800:47:21.159 --> 00:47:22.800
take a picture and send it and it's like, oh,81900:47:22.840 --> 00:47:26.559
it's this is what it means, and it's like, you82000:47:26.559 --> 00:47:29.400
should be careful because that is not entirely accurate. Like82100:47:29.679 --> 00:47:32.880
these these computer systems, they're fast and finding information, but82200:47:32.920 --> 00:47:36.280
whether or not that information's accurate is still way up82300:47:36.280 --> 00:47:36.719
in the air.82400:47:36.920 --> 00:47:40.199
It's pulling information from all over the internet, so yeah.82500:47:39.920 --> 00:47:41.480
And some of it is from the biggest hits that82600:47:41.519 --> 00:47:42.199
it gets.82700:47:42.239 --> 00:47:44.800
Right, and yeah, and some of it is from you know,82800:47:45.039 --> 00:47:47.039
lots of there are lots of descriptions of what this82900:47:47.159 --> 00:47:50.880
talisman is on sites that sell it because there's this83000:47:51.039 --> 00:47:54.280
very prepackaged description of what's on the talisman that's when83100:47:54.280 --> 00:47:58.440
it's sold that color some of your search results. And83200:47:58.480 --> 00:48:00.960
so sometimes you can get a clue a hint from83300:48:00.960 --> 00:48:03.400
a site where that's selling the item, but it's not83400:48:03.480 --> 00:48:06.159
always completely accurate, and so you have to use caution83500:48:06.440 --> 00:48:09.039
and you know, compare with other texts and other information83600:48:09.119 --> 00:48:13.519
that you find. But like, I found something on this83700:48:13.639 --> 00:48:18.320
talisman by accident on I think it's Occultopedia, because I83800:48:18.360 --> 00:48:20.880
was looking up something else and then I found this83900:48:20.920 --> 00:48:23.159
weird little squiggle that I had never been able to84000:48:23.199 --> 00:48:27.079
interpret before. That led me to the book The Omegia,84100:48:27.599 --> 00:48:31.400
which is an English text, very very old Grimore in84200:48:31.480 --> 00:48:35.199
collection of Magical Information, and I was able to find84300:48:35.239 --> 00:48:39.159
out more about this talisman through that little fortuitous accidental84400:48:40.440 --> 00:48:41.679
recognition of something.84500:48:42.159 --> 00:48:42.639
Wow.84600:48:45.039 --> 00:48:51.239
Now, for beginners that want to start using either just84700:48:51.960 --> 00:48:56.320
becoming a magical practitioner themselves or delving into Grimore and magic,84800:48:56.400 --> 00:48:58.840
what's one thing that one piece of advice you would84900:48:58.840 --> 00:49:00.440
give them.85000:49:00.840 --> 00:49:03.719
The piece of advice that I would give is a85100:49:04.079 --> 00:49:07.800
go slow. Nobody's timing you. This is not a competition85200:49:07.920 --> 00:49:10.960
or a race. And the other important piece of advice85300:49:11.000 --> 00:49:14.039
I would give is, in the realm of grim War's85400:49:14.119 --> 00:49:19.519
or older text, find something that absolutely fascinates you that85500:49:19.559 --> 00:49:22.280
you just can't get out of your head. Because if85600:49:22.280 --> 00:49:25.840
you do, then you will joyfully go to the work85700:49:26.079 --> 00:49:29.599
of figuring it out, decoding it as best you can,85800:49:30.199 --> 00:49:34.960
working out what the different significances of what's written or85900:49:35.079 --> 00:49:41.280
drawn in it are. But if you don't have that fascination,86000:49:41.440 --> 00:49:44.719
that love, that's what really draws you into study of86100:49:44.760 --> 00:49:50.119
an older text, is an inner drive that drives your86200:49:50.159 --> 00:49:54.199
magical interests or spiritual interests to do that decoding work.86300:49:54.760 --> 00:49:56.760
And it doesn't have to be something big. If it86400:49:56.800 --> 00:50:00.159
can be one image in one text or one passage86500:50:00.280 --> 00:50:03.800
in one text that you find and that fills you86600:50:03.880 --> 00:50:06.559
with intrigue, and that's what you should chase, that's what86700:50:06.599 --> 00:50:07.360
you should study.86800:50:10.159 --> 00:50:12.320
Yeah, I find that, like, that's the one thing that86900:50:12.360 --> 00:50:14.760
constantly drives me in everything that we do for this87000:50:14.800 --> 00:50:17.800
podcast too. It's like we wouldn't be doing the podcast87100:50:17.800 --> 00:50:18.440
if we didn't.87200:50:18.280 --> 00:50:21.880
Have interest in it, right, or questions or questions.87300:50:21.519 --> 00:50:23.840
And we constantly study it. And like, one thing that87400:50:23.880 --> 00:50:27.320
I've always found fascinating is the idea of spirit spirit animals,87500:50:27.880 --> 00:50:29.840
you know, And I started with the wolf as the87600:50:29.880 --> 00:50:32.960
primary that I've grown up just with the love of wolves.87700:50:33.079 --> 00:50:35.960
Everything about wolves has just been so fascinating to me.87800:50:37.199 --> 00:50:38.760
You know, the way the way they work together, the87900:50:38.800 --> 00:50:40.519
way they hunt, the way they react, the way they88000:50:40.599 --> 00:50:42.239
live and love and so on and so forth. Like88100:50:42.800 --> 00:50:45.800
there's so much more extravagant than what I think a88200:50:45.800 --> 00:50:47.960
lot of people think, you know, they think, oh wolf bad,88300:50:48.000 --> 00:50:51.440
it kills things, and you know, and it's like there's88400:50:51.519 --> 00:50:53.039
so much that we can learn from not just wolves,88500:50:53.159 --> 00:50:55.800
from animals. In January now, I remember the first time88600:50:55.840 --> 00:50:59.519
I ever saw an owl in real like real life88700:51:00.119 --> 00:51:02.800
outside the zoo, you know, out in the wild.88800:51:04.199 --> 00:51:06.360
I mean I would call that real life versus.88900:51:06.760 --> 00:51:09.159
I mean, okay, that's fair, But it's like I was,89000:51:09.199 --> 00:51:12.440
I was living in Atlanta, and I just kept hearing it,89100:51:12.639 --> 00:51:14.840
you know, do its call off. I think it was89200:51:14.880 --> 00:51:17.639
like it was hooting, but like I could not find89300:51:17.639 --> 00:51:19.480
it anywhere somewhere in the tree above me. Didn't know89400:51:19.519 --> 00:51:21.920
what it was. It became a little dark, so I89500:51:21.960 --> 00:51:24.840
went inside and it was dusk. You know, we don't89600:51:24.840 --> 00:51:26.000
I mean, I don't know about you guys, but dusk,89700:51:26.039 --> 00:51:28.000
it's very hard to see some things because it's just89800:51:28.039 --> 00:51:31.559
shadows and all of a sudden, but outside and there's89900:51:31.679 --> 00:51:36.840
this giant owl just sitting in the grass watching me.90000:51:37.039 --> 00:51:39.239
But I couldn't make out any features. I just knew90100:51:39.239 --> 00:51:41.519
it was an Owl's like, well, that's very mysterious, and90200:51:41.559 --> 00:51:44.440
it's like I wouldn't they haunted. But it's been something90300:51:44.480 --> 00:51:48.119
on my mind for the last six years now. It's90400:51:48.119 --> 00:51:50.440
like it has not left. There's always this thing about90500:51:50.440 --> 00:51:52.679
owls that has been fascinating, like why did that owl90600:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.039
appear when it did, and why was it so mysterious?90700:51:55.079 --> 00:51:56.840
Like what is it? Kind of me? You know, And90800:51:56.840 --> 00:52:00.559
that's something I always find interesting. Especially it's like when90900:52:00.559 --> 00:52:03.800
you we need, you have interest, whatever that is, you91000:52:03.840 --> 00:52:06.000
are naturally going to gravitate towards you that thing and91100:52:06.039 --> 00:52:07.599
you learn about it and learn about it and learn91200:52:07.599 --> 00:52:11.360
about it. And it's typically the case that that that91300:52:11.360 --> 00:52:15.000
that interest is never satisfied. You always want to know more, You're.91400:52:14.840 --> 00:52:17.760
Always hungry for more. And then that hunger carries you91500:52:17.800 --> 00:52:20.480
over the frustrating parts and the rough patches where you're91600:52:20.480 --> 00:52:22.840
not the information want right.91700:52:22.719 --> 00:52:26.400
Right, I mean I said it earlier. We keep delving91800:52:26.440 --> 00:52:30.000
deeper into everything just paranormal when we get into it,91900:52:30.280 --> 00:52:34.639
and that you know you talking about that Eric. As92000:52:34.639 --> 00:52:37.559
of recently, I've really been thinking that mine is a crow,92100:52:38.320 --> 00:52:43.079
just because I've always been fascinated with crows and ravens.92200:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.559
Now we are getting kind of close to the end here,92300:52:47.599 --> 00:52:54.639
but I wanted to ask you for our listeners tonight92400:52:54.800 --> 00:52:58.519
and those that read the book, what is one thing92500:52:58.800 --> 00:53:01.039
And we kind of touched on earlier. It was one92600:53:01.079 --> 00:53:05.119
thing that you hope people take from the Secrets Guide92700:53:05.119 --> 00:53:07.840
the Grimwore Magic, that.92800:53:07.920 --> 00:53:12.719
The bounty and abundance of magical secrets that are encoded92900:53:12.920 --> 00:53:15.639
in grim Wars that have been pinned throughout the centuries93000:53:15.639 --> 00:53:19.480
and around the world are part of our cultural and93100:53:19.559 --> 00:53:26.199
magical heritage, and that it's right for the exploration. And93200:53:27.519 --> 00:53:31.639
it's especially today with so many digitized libraries out there93300:53:31.679 --> 00:53:34.480
and so many specialized libraries around the world that contain93400:53:34.559 --> 00:53:39.000
the actual text themselves, that if you have an interest,93500:53:39.320 --> 00:53:41.880
it doesn't matter. I'm a dropout. You don't have to93600:53:41.920 --> 00:53:44.960
be an academic, you don't have to be an expert.93700:53:45.239 --> 00:53:47.239
You just have to be somebody that loves the topic.93800:53:47.280 --> 00:53:48.400
Go out there and explore.93900:53:51.960 --> 00:53:56.320
That's good. So what do we got here? We got94000:53:57.079 --> 00:53:59.280
just a couple of minutes. So we do want to94100:53:59.280 --> 00:54:01.679
give you the opportunity then to kind of tell everybody94200:54:01.679 --> 00:54:03.320
where they can find you, where they can find your94300:54:03.360 --> 00:54:05.760
book and anything else you want to share it. They're like,94400:54:06.280 --> 00:54:08.719
it's all yours. Feel free to share whatever you want.94500:54:09.039 --> 00:54:11.880
Oh my god, I'm terrible at this. Well, you can94600:54:11.920 --> 00:54:15.360
find me on TikTok as Liminal Reader, where I talk94700:54:15.400 --> 00:54:18.280
about this stuff and I talk about tarot reading and94800:54:18.280 --> 00:54:20.880
stuff like that. That's what the book looks like. I94900:54:20.960 --> 00:54:24.320
have mine over here. I told her, I'm terrible at95000:54:24.320 --> 00:54:28.800
this stuff. If you're in the Atlanta, Georgia area, I'm95100:54:28.840 --> 00:54:32.079
going to be at Mystic South in July. I help95200:54:32.199 --> 00:54:35.360
organize the Divination room there, but I'm also giving a95300:54:35.480 --> 00:54:38.719
workshop on creating work on cursed tablets and how to95400:54:38.840 --> 00:54:42.280
use them in modern practices called Curse your Heart to95500:54:42.280 --> 00:54:45.960
Heal It. And it's an amazing event that's really fun,95600:54:47.239 --> 00:54:50.800
And I think that's about it. I have a store95700:54:50.880 --> 00:54:54.719
on Etsa called Black Candle Cottage that sells Italian American candles,95800:54:54.880 --> 00:55:01.039
magical candles. But you know, mostly I'm just forever who's95900:55:01.079 --> 00:55:04.000
listening out there. It's a big, magical, wide world out there.96000:55:04.039 --> 00:55:06.559
There's no if my stuff doesn't appeal to you, there's96100:55:06.639 --> 00:55:08.519
other things that will appeal to you. Go out and96200:55:09.000 --> 00:55:11.519
explore the magical possibilities in the world.96300:55:13.119 --> 00:55:16.519
Well, and we haven't even touched on half of what96400:55:16.559 --> 00:55:19.039
we wanted to ask you, so we'll have to have96500:55:19.159 --> 00:55:22.280
you back if it's not for Grimwore Magic, just to96600:55:22.360 --> 00:55:25.480
talk paranormal because we loved talking to you before the96700:55:25.480 --> 00:55:29.199
show about it all. So d thank you for being96800:55:29.239 --> 00:55:30.079
on Paratruth you be.96900:55:30.079 --> 00:55:31.840
Born guys, thank you so much.97000:55:32.440 --> 00:55:32.880
Thank you.97100:55:35.159 --> 00:55:38.199
Ari. Folks, make sure you check out De Norman's book97200:55:38.320 --> 00:55:40.960
Seekers Guide to Grimwore Magic if you're watching YouTube there97300:55:40.960 --> 00:55:47.679
it is right there. Awesome, awesome guests. And I've loved97400:55:47.679 --> 00:55:48.719
looking through this book.97500:55:49.440 --> 00:55:51.639
Yeah, it's always fascinating, Like I'm always trying to find97600:55:51.719 --> 00:55:54.199
new books about Grimwors and I you know, I've talked97700:55:54.239 --> 00:55:55.559
to you this with why we did a show on97800:55:55.599 --> 00:55:59.519
it ourselves. What a year you're so good something like97900:55:59.519 --> 00:56:02.119
that's yeah, But there was a time where I was98000:56:02.159 --> 00:56:03.920
just like so fascinating. I was going through all this stuff,98100:56:03.920 --> 00:56:05.159
was talking with you about him, like we should just98200:56:05.199 --> 00:56:06.760
do a show because I've always stop here like looking98300:56:06.800 --> 00:56:10.519
into it's a good idea. But but this was much98400:56:10.519 --> 00:56:14.840
more informative. Clearly, absolutely someone who's a professional on to98500:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.159
tell us what it's all about.98600:56:17.239 --> 00:56:21.000
Well, I mean, anything we talk about without a guest,98700:56:21.119 --> 00:56:24.400
I would rather have a guest to come on to98800:56:24.440 --> 00:56:27.559
at least feed into what we're coming across on the internet.98900:56:29.119 --> 00:56:33.199
We asked our Paratruther the community group, what part of99000:56:33.320 --> 00:56:37.480
Grimore magic are you most curious about? Fifty percent said99100:56:37.480 --> 00:56:41.519
ancient spells and rituals and fifty percent said spirits and99200:56:41.599 --> 00:56:43.800
magical beings. Now, this is the second time we've had99300:56:43.840 --> 00:56:48.000
a fifty to fifty split, which is very interesting to say.99400:56:47.400 --> 00:56:49.679
That, which I mean there were two other answers that99500:56:49.800 --> 00:56:54.559
got zero percent. So yes, these two particular answers, why99600:56:55.159 --> 00:56:55.639
for sure?99700:56:55.920 --> 00:56:59.480
Yeah, So you'll find us, same time, same channel, right99800:56:59.519 --> 00:57:01.639
here next week. We'll see you then,
