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Coming up on Paratruth Reborn, we will be discussing the
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myths and legends of Norwich. Welcome to Paratruth. Welcome, everybody,
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to Paratrooth Reborn. My name is Eric.
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And I'm Justin.
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And tonight is a bit of a special episode in
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a way, because Justin and I are doing something we
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haven't done in quite a long time.
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A long time, a long time.
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And that is having a solo show where it's just
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he and I to discuss some pretty fun things. No
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guests tonight, which I'm actually looking forward to. Yeah, it's
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been crazy.
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Norwich is something that Eric has wanted to do for
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a while when we don't have a guest. And, I mean,
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who doesn't love folklore from England anyways? Exactly.
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So, Tonight, we are heading across the Atlantic to one
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of England's oldest cities, a place filled with medieval streets,
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ancient churches, underground passages, dragons, spectral figures, and stories that
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have survived for hundreds of years. And of course, as
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we've said multiple times, this is Norwich. And since we
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don't have a guest tonight, this will be an open
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discussion about these legends and stories. So if you have
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any questions, comments, feel free to send them in our chats,
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and we will be sure to share that right here
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on the episode as well, because we want you guys
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to be a part of this conversation.
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And please correct us if any of our information is
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off or incorrect, because just like everything else, a lot
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of our information is from the internet, and of course,
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we know not everything on the internet is 100% true
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or factual.
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So, before we get into... ghosts and monsters and all
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the things that Norwich offers. Why does, Justin, if you
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can answer this or at least have an idea, why
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does Norwich have so much folklore associated with it?
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Well, I mean, you have to really look at that
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Norwich is, by all terms, ancient.
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I mean, it.
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Has centuries upon centuries of history layered on top of itself.
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You've got medieval buildings, churches, old streets, a castle, religious conflicts, executions, disease, war, superstition,
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you name it. All the ingredients that tend to create folklore.
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Norfolk itself, Norwich itself, sorry, has an incredibly rich storytelling tradition.
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You find stories about ghosts, supernatural, Animals, which is strange illnesses,
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magical places, the devil, hidden tunnels, you name it, it's
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all there. What's interesting is that some stories are obviously folklore,
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while others begin with something that really happened and get
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stranger every time they're retold. As we've said multiple times,
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the telephone effect.
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Yeah.
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I mean, pretty much everything we've ever discussed and have seen,
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and same with you guys listening in probably, most of
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those stories that we get, they start off, or I
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should say, not that stories themselves start off, but the
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history of the story starts off very differently than the
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modern interpretation of that story when you actually dig into
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the research and the historical significance of some of these
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characters that we talk about. But it's always fascinating to
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see the difference because one thing that is always commonplace
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is that these stories, even though they have changed so
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much over the years, the modern interpretations manage to build
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themselves a little foundation. And so the stories that we
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hear today, people are actually seeing and they're actually witnessing
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the stories that we hear today. Whereas the ones in
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the past, maybe they aren't quite as significant or quite
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as extravagant, I should say, not significant, but extravagant. And
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that's one thing that I think is really fun about
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just the paranormal in general is like story is the
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root of the paranormal. And when you dig down deep
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to the foundation, you find maybe not everything is quite
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as it seems, but in some cases it's worse.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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For real.
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Yeah.
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Something that really digs deep into how folklore comes about
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is beer. And yeah, the original story is very fearful enough,
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but adding on people's takes on it or interpretations of it,
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one of the things that I don't want to be true,
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but I believe, down in my soul is that dragons,
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as much as I want them to be real, it
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almost is somebody, a knight or somebody came across a
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skeletal remains of a dinosaur or something that was way
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larger than themselves made up a story about slaying this
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creature and said it had wings and breathe fire just
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to make themselves look better.
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Right. Well, and that is, of course, just one interpretation
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because there are also people who claim that these dinosaurs
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that we have, these fossils, are actually that of dragons. And,
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of course, that goes to carbon dating as well, in
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which some of these bones seem to only be 100,000 years, 300,000 years,
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not quite as old as scientists have claimed in the past. And,
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of course, the whole idea between carbon dating and all
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that is kind of still... very controversial. Yeah. And, but
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it's interesting, you know, it's like the idea of the
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Tyrannosaurus Rex, right. It's like, why is this gigantic, uh,
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king of the dinosaurs had these little itty bitty arms. Uh,
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it doesn't make a lot of sense. And of course
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there are significant, uh, um, I guess ideas behind what those, uh,
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its arms were used for, uh, such as holding down
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prey while I ate. Um, And doing things that we
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shall not talk about here on air. But on the
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flip side, if you were to take those arms and
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move them to the sides of the dinosaur, of the T-Rex, well,
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suddenly they look like the arms of a wing, which
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is very significant because it's exactly how a wing would be.
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In terms of the bone structure. Yeah, the brain structure
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of the wing. Yeah. So there is belief that maybe
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the T-Rex was actually a dragon, but we interpreted the
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fossilization wrong and built the T-Rex as he is. But regardless,
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I think one thing we need to talk about regarding
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the dragon is how it corresponds to Norwich folklore, because
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it's probably one of the coolest stories ever. that we
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have tonight and mind you, there are a lot of
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cool stories here, but the idea of a Norwich dragon, well,
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that one's pretty interesting.
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Yeah. The Norwich dragon is it is a long tradition
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involving something called the snap dragon or snap the dragon.
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Folklore is not really clear or it's kind of been
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muddled over time as to If it's one or the other.
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Now there are snapdragons. That are flowers. But this is
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talking about. A legend. We're not talking about people. Claiming
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they physically saw a dragon. Flying around Norwich however. This
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was a ceremonial dragon. Associated with. The guild of St. George.
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And if you don't know the. Legend of St. George.
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St.
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George slayed the dragon. Which was a. allegory for Christianity
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defeating the devil or Jesus defeating the devil. But it
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was a knight, St. George, who defeated this dragon. And
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I encourage you all to look up the folklore of St. George.
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It's a fascinating story. But the Norwich dragon tradition goes
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back to the early 1400s during celebrations connected to St.
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George performers would parade a large dragon through the city. Now,
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you do see this in Asian folklore and tradition as well,
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where in a lot of parades, you'll see them running
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around with a Chinese dragon costume on their bodies. Eventually,
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the dragon became one of the stars of Norwich's civic celebrations.
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The costume was basically this huge body worn by a person,
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complete with snapping jaws. and apparently those jaws were just
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decorative the dragon could snap at spectators and even grab
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things like people people's hats not people now Imagine going
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to a medieval parade, and this is before technology, mind you,
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and suddenly this giant dragon comes barreling toward you trying
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to steal your shit. That is mind-blowing and scary in
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and of itself.
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Like treasure.
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They've always liked treasure. They've always been greedy. Right. Well, now...
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And one of the things is like when you think
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about how the folklore began, you know, the idea that
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this was Christian imagery, potentially at least, in which the
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Christian faith was defeating evil, right? The faith over death,
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Jesus over the devil. It's just very interesting to consider
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that when such religious symbolism or paganism pagan tree is involved,
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that it can eventually become so embedded in the place
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that it actually almost becomes its own mythology of the
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city or country that it's in. And, you know, we
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see that still today. I mean, there are plenty of
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places around the world where something has happened in history
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that isn't true at all. And yet it's so ingrained
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into the storytelling that people have just naturally believed it
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to be real, even if they know it's not. They
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just accept it. And it's part of their story. You know,
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one of the examples is the, what the heck is
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it called? Beast of Gabadon, right? So a lot of
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us know the Beast of Gabadon as a werewolf story.
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But historically speaking, there is plenty of evidence that suggests,
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or I should even say proves, and there's a documentary
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out on this, that The Beast of Gravidan, the werewolf,
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was actually just a highly trained hyena that was trained
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to kill people. And there's, of course, a big, big,
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big rabbit hole as to that story. Maybe that's something
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we cover at one point. Because we are due for
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a werewolf slash dogman episode, I think.
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Yeah.
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But nonetheless... Justin, do you think that people centuries ago
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actually viewed these dragons purely symbolically, or might there be
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some actual, like, genuinely believing individuals who claim these creatures
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likely existed?
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Well, here's the thing. Snap the Dragon primarily is connected
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to Christian legend of St. George and the dragon, rather
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than a story saying an actual dragon lived underneath norwich
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um but dragons are everywhere norwich's history historic and imagery
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as well as throughout the world i mean if you
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look at dragon folklore it is in every society that
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we know of today um going all the way back
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to like ancient greece samaria you name it um But
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dragons are everywhere, like I said. There are medieval dragon
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carvings around the city, including one inside Dragon Hall, which
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is fascinating that it's called Dragon Hall, by the way.
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And dragon imagery appears in churches and other historic buildings.
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And again, throughout Europe in general, the dragon makes an
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appearance in a lot of churches because... It does represent
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the serpent, the devil, things like that. Now, over hundreds
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of years, the dragon became part of Norwich's identity. And
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that's where folklore gets interesting. Something can begin as religious
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symbolism or pageantry. And eventually become so embedded in a
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place that it almost becomes its own mythology or fact,
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for that matter.
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Yeah. No, for sure. Now, this one, this next one
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that we're going to talk about, sounds like something straight
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out of an Arthurian legend. And there's supposed to be,
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if I'm not mistaken, some sort of... supposed king that
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is sleeping underneath morowich um which this was something we
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talked about a little while ago just you and i
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and we chatted a little bit because it was kind
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of a weird story uh the fact that there's a
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sleeping king not a dead king just a sleeping king
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so what is the tradition behind that and how does
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that king connect to morowich specifically.
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Well, here's the thing. Nobody has ever been able to
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nail down that there really is a King Arthur. And again,
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King Arthur is kind of the same story as this
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one where he's a sleeping king to come back when
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he is needed. Excuse me. There is a tradition involving
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King Gergant, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, sometimes connected with
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Norwich Castle. Um, the legend says that this ancient King
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lies sleeping beneath Norwich and will rise again when the
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city needs him again, very similar to Arthurian legend. Uh,
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it's a fascinating folklore motif that goes throughout Europe. Um,
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King Arthur supposedly isn't truly dead along with King Gungorant
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and will return when Britain needs him. Uh, You have
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sleeping emperors, warriors underneath the mountains, armies waiting beneath the earth.
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And Norwich apparently gets its own version of that. So
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basically what.
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You're saying is that Norwich has an emergency king buried
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underneath it just in case.
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Pretty much. And the funny thing is, again, it goes
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throughout Europe. Great Britain specifically has a lot of these legends.
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Yeah. Do you think they have like a little section
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set up somewhere where it's like break glass in case
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of invasion and this king just rises from the earth?
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That would be hilarious.
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Just like the emergency act for a fire.
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Right.
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Wouldn't that be something like just the bell start ringing
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and there is just like splits open and this king raises.
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Like, what am I doing here?
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I'm back, baby.
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Not a king at all.
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The dude is probably like somebody who was at a
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bar drunk as hell and put a little, I don't know,
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like a toilet pan on his head and said, I'm
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a king. And they just, sorry. I'm not trying to
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diss Norwich. That deal's funny.
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Oh, man.
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But hey, who knows? Maybe there's an actual sleeping king.
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And when it comes to legends like this, How do
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legends like the Sleeping King actually come about? Because we
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do have some sort of information on that.
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I mean, one possibility is cultural memory. People want legendary
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heroes to remain available to them. Killing the hero permanently
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ends his story. And not that Jesus is a legend
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that I'm saying that But it's the same allegory. Jesus
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died to come back, which these kings technically are said
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not to be dead, but to be sleeping. But if
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you say he's not dead, he's sleeping. Now the hero
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can come back. It turns a historical or mythical figure
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into a protector who exists outside normal time. psychologically that's an,
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that's a powerful thing for anybody and anybody who is
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in the Christian faith or any religion for that matter. Um,
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the hope is, is that their savior will come back
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to save them one day.
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Yeah. And of course, I mean, obviously from the Christian standpoint,
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as you all know, with my, my belief system is
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that in Jesus isn't sleeping, but that he actually did
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rise from the grave and is currently working, uh, in
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heaven for everybody. But that at one point in time,
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he will come back a second time to ultimately create
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the new heaven and new earth for all individuals and
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get rid of any evil that is happening here on
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this planet or the universe, depending on your beliefs. But
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would you say that people have, would it have originally
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interpreted these types of stories literally back then? Or were
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they always more understood as symbolic folklore, do you think?
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Back then, I think these people believed that this was
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going to be true. That's the thing about folklore is.
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Folklore comes from the time that it was created.
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Right.
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So we see it as folklore today. Back then, they
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thought of it as true. Is that actually... how it went.
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I don't, I'm not sure, but I think people really
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did believe that any, any hero that they said was
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asleep or he's not gone forever or things like that.
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They believed it to be true that he would come back.
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Right.
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I hope that, I mean, I'm hoping that for a
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long time, but when I do die, I want my grave,
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like just sleeping, be back soon.
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Um, yeah, that seems, to be a good idea because well,
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but first you have to die a hero. So you
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got to figure out how you're going to die the
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hero first and then get that on your drainer.
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You see, if I know anything about legends, it's that
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they start with a lie.
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Not a lie.
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Just history that's been twisted. I technically saved a few
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kittens from Brought them into my home, which makes me
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a hero. Don't roll your eyes at me. People listening
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and not watching can't tell how many times Justin rolls
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his eyes at me or just looks away like, Lucas
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is an idiot. Why do I do this show with him?
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I feel that in that case, we're both heroes. We've
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both rescued animals from a bad situation or a was
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a bad situation when they got rescued. Now, let's go
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into Norwich's underground. One thing that always gets paranormal people
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excited is underground tunnels, and Norwich apparently has plenty of
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tunnel stories. What's underneath Norwich?
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Yeah, yeah. Tunnels are definitely something that piques people's interest,
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and we see that around the world. Even here in Cleveland,
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we have tunnels that are especially popularized for its folklore
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and ghost stories.
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Same here in Bismarck, too. Yeah.
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So there's this thing about the underground that obviously radiates
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some sort of paranormal energy, right? But in Norwich, which
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absolutely has underground spaces such as cellars, passages... old structures,
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even layers of construction that tend to riddle the city
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or the area. But then there's this legendary Norwich underground,
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which is a slightly different thing. And some will say
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an entirely different thing. Now, there have been stories that
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have circulated about secret tunnels connecting churches and religious buildings,
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the castle, and other parts of the city as well.
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And some underground structures obviously do exist. But the tricky
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part is separating documented archaeology from stories about enormous secret
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passage networks. And once people know there really are things underground,
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it's incredibly easy for the imagination to fill in the blanks. Like,
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what happened? Why was this underground abandoned? What was it
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used for? And things like that. We see that with
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like mining, mining towns. And we see that with old
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railroad tunnels.
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It's yeah.
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It's something that just, that just fills the imagination with
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all and wonder. And in some cases fear. Yeah.
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And that's almost a perfect folklore fuel because you can
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actually point at an entrance and say, see, There is
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something under there. Exactly.
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And the question becomes, like, how much is there? Right.
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It's like, how far does that go? And of course,
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we have people who explore it, who can get into
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some of these tunnels and go a certain distance. There's
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also been tragic fatalities for individuals who've done this on
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their own, who are experienced with and actually who are
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both experienced and not experienced. when traveling these tunnels and exploring.
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It's definitely a dangerous thing. But one thing that I
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always find interesting is, in terms of the folklore, is
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this idea of spirit communication. Almost people hearing voices or
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hearing rocks being thrown or various noises on the walls,
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banging or scratching, et cetera. And one thing that you
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have to kind of consider is that these tunnels, because
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they're underground, because the way the caverns are built, things echo.
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They whisper on the other side of this cavern, wherever
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it may be, may echo through and sound like it's
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a ghost. It could be a trickle of water. It
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could be a small stone falling. And people interpret this
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thing because you're in this environment that is relatively scary.
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It is spooky. It's dark. It's mysterious. It's otherworldly. And
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so when these things happen, naturally legends are born.
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For sure. Now, why secret tunnel legends, like specifically under
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castles and churches? Because there's a lot of them, especially
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for churches specifically.
359
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Yeah, yeah. You know, I think it's because they're believable, mostly.
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You know, like a medieval building has a blocked doorway.
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For example, someone discovers a cellar. There's a tunnel-shaped structure.
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Suddenly somebody says, my grandfather told me that goes all
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the way to the castle. Then somebody else says, and
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monkeys did. Or another person says, I don't know, like
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prisoners escaped through it or something, right? And then 200
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years later, 300, 400, nobody remembers where the original story
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came from. And now it's simply, there's a secret tunnel
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underneath Norwich. And that folklore is happening in real time.
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So now people are sharing these different stories and some
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of this folklore gets held onto and passed down and
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other ones just, they fade away. And eventually you have
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something that's relatively solid. But even here in the US,
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we have a lot of folklore about tunnels that just
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people have different views and opinions on what happened and
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what they were used for. For sure.
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All right, before we get too much more into it,
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00:26:48.549 --> 00:26:50.769
we're going to take a quick break and hear a
378
00:26:50.930 --> 00:26:54.529
word from our supporting sponsor, and we will be right back.
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Alright, folks. Welcome back to Paratroop Reborn. And we've been
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talking about the legends of Norwich. We just got done
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with the secret tunnels that are supposedly under Norwich. And
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00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:04.460
now we're going to get into some really interesting stuff. Now,
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00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:11.289
we both have loved this legend for a while. the
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00:28:11.329 --> 00:28:16.150
Black Shook or the Black Dog. We can't talk about
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00:28:16.430 --> 00:28:21.000
Norwich folklore without including the Black Shook. So what is
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00:28:21.019 --> 00:28:23.920
the Black Shook? Yeah, so.
395
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The Black Shook is the legendary Black Dog of East Anglia. Now,
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stories describe an enormous spectral Black Dog wandering roads, churchyards, countryside,
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and even coastal areas. And depending on the version, it
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00:28:43.890 --> 00:28:47.430
may have glowing eyes or sometimes even a single eye,
399
00:28:48.170 --> 00:28:52.400
and seeing it can be interpreted as an omen of death.
400
00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:58.200
But that's not entirely universal, because some versions of the
401
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:03.509
black dog tradition actually describe the creature almost like a
402
00:29:03.549 --> 00:29:09.289
supernatural guardian, So Black Shuck isn't necessarily just Satan's dog,
403
00:29:09.509 --> 00:29:13.849
quote unquote, but the legend changes depending on where and
404
00:29:13.990 --> 00:29:15.579
when it's being told.
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00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:21.740
So here's the one big question. Is the Black Shuck
406
00:29:22.380 --> 00:29:23.900
specific to Norwich?
407
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.920
Not necessarily. It's more accurate to call Black Shuck an
408
00:29:31.049 --> 00:29:39.970
East Anglian legend. particularly associated with Norfolk and Suffolk. That's important.
409
00:29:40.380 --> 00:29:45.160
when we're discussing Norwich because folklore doesn't respect modern city
410
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.940
limits like it does in other areas. Think Bigfoot, for example,
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00:29:48.980 --> 00:29:51.960
where he's spotted as a Yeti in one place, but
412
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:55.619
then a Bigfoot elsewhere, you know, or a Sasquatch. It
413
00:29:55.680 --> 00:30:00.369
is very similar in this sense. And so people traveled,
414
00:30:00.849 --> 00:30:05.369
stories traveled. A frightening thing supposedly seen 10 miles away
415
00:30:05.450 --> 00:30:09.799
gets retold 20 miles away. Eventually, the creature belongs to
416
00:30:09.859 --> 00:30:14.980
that entire region, right? And it's very similar. Again, I mean,
417
00:30:15.019 --> 00:30:18.579
I use these similarities because it's important, but the dogmen
418
00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:22.630
here in the U.S. originating in Michigan. Well, now it's
419
00:30:22.650 --> 00:30:25.549
spread to Wisconsin. It's spread all the way to central
420
00:30:25.670 --> 00:30:26.289
Ohio again.
421
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:28.019
I was going to say, it's big in Ohio.
422
00:30:28.059 --> 00:30:31.490
Yeah, even as close to Cleveland, you know, and that's
423
00:30:31.529 --> 00:30:34.849
like a big space. And the question is, is there
424
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an actual creature moving that distance or is it just
425
00:30:37.710 --> 00:30:40.990
the stories that are gaining traction and people are seeing
426
00:30:41.049 --> 00:30:44.660
these things based on their own imagination and what, you know,
427
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:45.480
the stories that they know?
428
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Or misinterpretation or misidentification.
429
00:30:49.579 --> 00:30:51.900
Yeah, I mean, there is absolutely that as well. I mean,
430
00:30:51.940 --> 00:30:57.210
especially when you consider like, various types of wolves or
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00:30:57.289 --> 00:31:02.130
dogs or coyotes that exist, which can easily be mistaken
432
00:31:02.329 --> 00:31:05.589
at night, especially with the glowing eyes, right? A lot
433
00:31:05.630 --> 00:31:08.789
of these creatures are nocturnal by nature, and so they
434
00:31:08.829 --> 00:31:11.170
have highly reflective eyes. I can't tell you how many
435
00:31:11.190 --> 00:31:14.069
times I've seen coyotes at night or fox, and their
436
00:31:14.190 --> 00:31:18.710
eyes just, you know, super glow, right? It's like you're
437
00:31:18.730 --> 00:31:20.799
looking at something that looks like it's actually glowing in
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00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:22.799
the dark, but it's not. It's just a reflection of
439
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:24.769
of what little light there is.
440
00:31:26.109 --> 00:31:29.130
Well, I'll ask you this and maybe you don't know. Um,
441
00:31:30.690 --> 00:31:35.809
most animals, the, the eye shine is not red. So
442
00:31:36.630 --> 00:31:42.730
is there a specific, um, animal or specific light source
443
00:31:42.750 --> 00:31:44.529
that would turn them red? Like the black shuck?
444
00:31:45.430 --> 00:31:48.569
Uh, I mean, only if there's really red light, you know,
445
00:31:48.630 --> 00:31:50.990
because even when you take, in most cases, you take
446
00:31:51.049 --> 00:31:53.569
photos of animals, you're not going to get red eyes
447
00:31:53.789 --> 00:31:55.849
off of them. In most cases, you're usually getting like
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00:31:55.890 --> 00:31:59.930
a white or a bluish or green. Red is almost solely,
449
00:32:00.700 --> 00:32:06.980
almost solely to reflect in flash photography on humans. And
450
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:09.440
that actually goes back to like, you know, the old
451
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:13.319
school disposable cameras, the old film stock's. You don't really
452
00:32:13.339 --> 00:32:15.539
get that so much today with modern cameras.
453
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:19.220
Now, yeah, it blacks it out or whatever.
454
00:32:19.460 --> 00:32:22.119
Yeah, there's an intelligence behind the cameras that help to
455
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:27.460
keep the red eye thing at bay. Right. But even that,
456
00:32:27.579 --> 00:32:29.980
the idea is that when you take a photo of
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00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.319
a person, for example, and you get that red flash,
458
00:32:34.339 --> 00:32:35.160
we used to call it.
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00:32:35.140 --> 00:32:35.960
Devil eyes, right?
460
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:43.240
Or demon eyes. And in reality, it's just... The light
461
00:32:43.299 --> 00:32:47.119
refracting off of the blood vessels within the eyes. So
462
00:32:47.140 --> 00:32:50.059
you're actually seeing blood, which is crazy to think about,
463
00:32:50.900 --> 00:32:54.099
that's glowing and reflecting backward. But yeah, you don't get
464
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:57.779
that the same with animals because their eyes are simply
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00:32:58.059 --> 00:32:59.880
made different, especially nocturnal animals.
466
00:33:00.009 --> 00:33:05.589
Right. Specifically. Right. Now, which also makes.
467
00:33:07.069 --> 00:33:11.549
Investigating sightings is incredibly difficult because now you've got centuries
468
00:33:11.630 --> 00:33:15.269
of people who already know what they're supposed to see
469
00:33:15.450 --> 00:33:18.349
when it comes to the black shuck. Do you think
470
00:33:18.589 --> 00:33:24.220
black shuck started with people actually encountering something? Or is it,
471
00:33:25.140 --> 00:33:27.680
like we were just talking about, they ran into a wolf,
472
00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:31.619
saw red eyes, and in the dark, if you don't
473
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:35.519
have a light source or a very bad light source...
474
00:33:36.140 --> 00:33:37.779
it looks black and it's not.
475
00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:44.349
Yeah, very possibly. That's very possible. And there are several
476
00:33:44.410 --> 00:33:47.809
mundane possibilities as well. As you said, large dogs. It
477
00:33:47.829 --> 00:33:49.569
very well could be a large dog. It could be
478
00:33:49.609 --> 00:33:54.349
wild animals seen under poor lighting. It could be fear, misidentification,
479
00:33:54.829 --> 00:33:59.059
stories that are deliberately exaggerated. But there could also be
480
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:03.880
or have been experiences that people had that were genuine,
481
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:07.730
that they couldn't explain. And I think that's part of
482
00:34:07.809 --> 00:34:13.369
what gets lost sometimes. Calling something folklore doesn't automatically mean
483
00:34:13.750 --> 00:34:19.050
the original witness lied because something obviously did happen in
484
00:34:19.150 --> 00:34:25.150
most cases. The question is whether the explanation survived the accuracy.
485
00:34:26.510 --> 00:34:28.659
Even right now, if you're watching the video, there's a
486
00:34:28.739 --> 00:34:30.820
huge shadow creeping up behind me and I can be like,
487
00:34:30.860 --> 00:34:32.940
oh God, that's a shadow spirit back there.
488
00:34:32.980 --> 00:34:33.699
Do you see it, Justin?
489
00:34:34.099 --> 00:34:37.199
Yeah. You see that shadow rising? If I didn't know
490
00:34:37.260 --> 00:34:39.960
better and knew my cat wasn't back there, I could
491
00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:43.639
take that and run with it. But he's in front
492
00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:44.260
of my light source.
493
00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:47.079
I mean, we've talked about running with a story to
494
00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:48.099
see how far it would go.
495
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:49.119
Oh, and it went far.
496
00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:55.519
It went very far. But, you know, when it comes
497
00:34:55.659 --> 00:35:00.590
to the Black Shuck in particular, we do have some
498
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:04.750
stories of a hound of hell. And this one is
499
00:35:04.809 --> 00:35:10.019
actually pretty intriguing because there was supposedly a black shuck
500
00:35:10.099 --> 00:35:12.820
or a black dog that attacked a church on August
501
00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:20.340
4th of 1577. Now, apparently the black shuck attacked two
502
00:35:21.650 --> 00:35:25.869
South Folk churches during a severe thunderstorm. And the first
503
00:35:25.929 --> 00:35:30.300
attack happened at St. Mary's Church on Bungay. where the
504
00:35:30.340 --> 00:35:33.519
beast supposedly broke through the main doors with a clap
505
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:37.840
of thunder and killed two kneeling worshipers with extreme heat,
506
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:41.079
or it had broken their necks. And I think that's
507
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:43.400
part of the story here, where it's like, okay, now
508
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.860
what's the truth? Was it extreme heat? Was it broken neck?
509
00:35:45.940 --> 00:35:47.519
Two vastly different stories.
510
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:51.559
Was the body burned, or were they just lifeless on
511
00:35:51.579 --> 00:35:51.980
the ground?
512
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:56.760
Right. The second attack happened just hours later, the same night,51300:35:57.179 --> 00:36:03.079
at the Holy Trinity Church, in Blytheburg, roughly about 1251400:36:03.079 --> 00:36:07.400
miles away. But in this case, the shuck materialized within51500:36:07.460 --> 00:36:12.960
the church and killed a man and a boy before vanishing. However,51600:36:13.739 --> 00:36:17.539
the interesting part of this particular story is the claim51700:36:17.599 --> 00:36:22.039
of evidence of the shuck's attack. In fact, there are51800:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.449
what many claim to be black claw marks known as51900:36:25.510 --> 00:36:28.719
the devil's fingerprints on the church door which is still52000:36:28.780 --> 00:36:33.420
visible today. Now, I do think that these two stories52100:36:33.500 --> 00:36:38.099
get mixed up a bit, but regardless, the stories do stand.52200:36:38.119 --> 00:36:41.090
The reason I think they get mixed up is because52300:36:41.130 --> 00:36:44.030
we have one that bangs through the church, comes through52400:36:44.050 --> 00:36:48.250
the front doors, and breaks people's necks or something, but52500:36:48.269 --> 00:36:50.929
there's no marks on the doors. Whereas the other one,52600:36:51.429 --> 00:36:55.269
it materializes within the church, And yet somehow there are52700:36:55.289 --> 00:36:57.889
black marks on the doors. So I do think that's52800:36:57.949 --> 00:37:00.170
part of how these stories get kind of mixed up.52900:37:00.829 --> 00:37:05.530
Probably the doors that have the marks are probably the one,53000:37:05.889 --> 00:37:09.170
probably the church that this black shot could have busted through, right?53100:37:10.369 --> 00:37:14.159
Well, and what's fascinating about this particular story is it53200:37:14.260 --> 00:37:19.500
happened in two churches according to the history on the53300:37:19.579 --> 00:37:20.440
same day.53400:37:21.920 --> 00:37:22.119
Right.53500:37:22.320 --> 00:37:27.510
And That really makes you question what was happening or53600:37:28.329 --> 00:37:32.090
was there some type of strife in these two churches53700:37:32.170 --> 00:37:36.679
that would have caused people to be afraid? Now, if53800:37:36.739 --> 00:37:42.519
somebody encounters something strange after already knowing the Blackchuck legend,53900:37:43.219 --> 00:37:46.940
are they seeing the Blackchuck or are they interpreting an54000:37:47.099 --> 00:37:48.519
unknown experience through folklore?54100:37:51.030 --> 00:37:53.510
I mean, it really just depends, right? It depends on54200:37:53.530 --> 00:37:56.989
the situation. But in most cases, I would say they're54300:37:57.010 --> 00:38:01.820
just experiencing or interpreting an unknown experience through a story54400:38:01.860 --> 00:38:03.989
that they already know. And the reason I say that54500:38:04.030 --> 00:38:06.679
is because how many of us believe in stories that54600:38:06.880 --> 00:38:11.000
just simply aren't true? For example, everywhere around the world,54700:38:11.019 --> 00:38:14.239
a black cat crossing the street in front of you54800:38:14.619 --> 00:38:19.980
is good luck, minus one country, the U.S., right? And54900:38:20.139 --> 00:38:25.420
so we tend to see in the U.S. things differently55000:38:25.480 --> 00:38:28.840
and often in some odd way negatively, more negative than55100:38:28.880 --> 00:38:31.420
the rest of the world, which says something. Come on, U.S.,55200:38:31.480 --> 00:38:37.840
get it together. So, you know, when you consider something55300:38:37.880 --> 00:38:40.059
like that, you know, people get this idea like, oh,55400:38:40.500 --> 00:38:43.280
the black shuck looks a certain way. And when they55500:38:43.480 --> 00:38:47.139
see a black dog, a literal black dog, they should55600:38:47.179 --> 00:38:50.780
mind his business, probably go. taking a dump on the55700:38:50.920 --> 00:38:52.800
grass or something and people see it, they're like, oh55800:38:52.820 --> 00:38:55.440
my God, that's a black shuck. And it's, it's, it's,55900:38:55.619 --> 00:38:58.639
it's interpreting, they're interpreting it like it's taking the, it's56000:38:58.659 --> 00:39:01.320
taking the crap in front of me. Oh my God, it's,56100:39:01.460 --> 00:39:03.460
it's crapping on my life. My life's going to be56200:39:03.500 --> 00:39:09.280
craps out. I mean, obviously to the extreme. But, you know,56300:39:09.320 --> 00:39:14.929
the idea is people see animals and, and they simply56400:39:15.090 --> 00:39:19.639
view these animals as being something of legend. The wolf,56500:39:19.840 --> 00:39:23.269
for example, is a very, very strong character of this.56600:39:23.670 --> 00:39:27.530
People see the wolf as a negative creature, a negative animal,56700:39:27.630 --> 00:39:32.820
because it's interpreted negative throughout many stories. The werewolf, various56800:39:32.860 --> 00:39:36.300
Christian stories about how the wolf is evil or, you know,56900:39:36.800 --> 00:39:39.280
not that the wolf itself is evil, but the evil57000:39:39.320 --> 00:39:42.280
people are like wolves, you know, and so the wolf57100:39:42.320 --> 00:39:45.489
gets a bad rep. And a lot of people, unfortunately,57200:39:45.929 --> 00:39:48.949
fear them because of that, when really they're just like57300:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.739
I mean, not like dogs, but you know, they're, they57400:39:52.800 --> 00:39:55.860
usually aren't going around just killing people randomly or taking57500:39:55.920 --> 00:39:58.599
livestock and all this stuff. They just, they're hungry and57600:39:58.619 --> 00:39:59.429
they got to survive.57700:40:00.550 --> 00:40:07.329
Right. Well, and you mentioned here in the U S specifically, um,57800:40:07.670 --> 00:40:14.480
where we label things that aren't necessarily bad luck, bad57900:40:14.539 --> 00:40:18.260
luck elsewhere. I think one of the biggest things in58000:40:18.519 --> 00:40:24.639
that regard is the U S is a, a huge58100:40:25.900 --> 00:40:30.079
mixing pot of cultures. We've got legends from so many58200:40:30.119 --> 00:40:38.300
different cultures and legends and folklore eventually become superstition. And58300:40:38.599 --> 00:40:40.469
I think that's where a lot of that comes from.58400:40:40.489 --> 00:40:44.050
Yeah. Yeah, and obviously I'm not saying that people didn't58500:40:44.300 --> 00:40:49.059
see a black shark. No, I'm not sure. But there are, again,58600:40:49.960 --> 00:40:52.059
stories that claim this black shark to be good, to58700:40:52.880 --> 00:41:00.050
be of luck and positivity, versus others that see it negative.58800:41:00.710 --> 00:41:04.269
And that's just the way the cookie crumbles, unfortunately, around58900:41:04.289 --> 00:41:05.769
the world, based on the stories.59000:41:06.349 --> 00:41:06.670
For sure.59100:41:06.690 --> 00:41:10.880
Well, now, Of course, we can't talk about the paranormal59200:41:10.900 --> 00:41:12.960
without talking about one of the most paranormal things in59300:41:12.980 --> 00:41:16.039
the world, right? The whole point of the paranormal, really,59400:41:16.099 --> 00:41:19.889
that splashed everything, and that is the idea of ghosts. So,59500:41:20.369 --> 00:41:22.710
with that said, Lord of the Witch is, of course,59600:41:22.730 --> 00:41:28.769
also known, on top of its other mysteries, ghosts. So, Justin,59700:41:28.829 --> 00:41:32.320
what are some of the places that repeatedly show up59800:41:32.619 --> 00:41:34.039
in the city's ghost stories?59900:41:36.400 --> 00:41:41.409
I mean, there's... Some of the biggest names are exactly60000:41:41.449 --> 00:41:46.719
what you'd expect from a medieval English city. Norwich Castle,60100:41:46.980 --> 00:41:52.380
Norwich Cathedral, Elm Hill, Tomb Land, which is fascinating in60200:41:52.400 --> 00:41:58.019
and of itself, Quayside, and various old streets and buildings60300:41:58.199 --> 00:42:07.039
throughout the city. There are stories involving apparitions, unexplained footsteps, monks,60400:42:07.670 --> 00:42:12.619
poltergeist activity and other strange encounters, you name it. I60500:42:12.659 --> 00:42:16.460
think England as a whole, you see tons of this60600:42:16.539 --> 00:42:20.260
because England is one of the oldest countries in Europe.60700:42:22.480 --> 00:42:28.369
One of the bigger ones. There's even a whole Norwich60800:42:28.489 --> 00:42:34.670
ghost tour tradition built around these stories, which is true60900:42:34.989 --> 00:42:39.139
for a lot of places that have ghost stories. I mean,61000:42:39.300 --> 00:42:41.039
you and I went to New Orleans, they had a61100:42:41.059 --> 00:42:44.179
ghost tour. They've got ghost tours in Cleveland. They have61200:42:44.219 --> 00:42:47.699
ghost tours here in Bismarck. And I think one of61300:42:47.719 --> 00:42:51.659
the biggest things about that is since there's been so61400:42:51.679 --> 00:42:56.280
many sightings, it's been glorified and passionate, uh, passionate ties61500:42:56.769 --> 00:43:01.750
with the culture that is here now today.61600:43:01.769 --> 00:43:07.800
Right. Um, Do you think, and this is a random thought, but,61700:43:07.840 --> 00:43:10.400
you know, I'm always full of random thoughts. Do you61800:43:10.440 --> 00:43:11.199
think Tombland.61900:43:11.260 --> 00:43:13.860
Eric, full of random thoughts. I could never guess that.62000:43:14.579 --> 00:43:18.300
Do you think Tombland... I've not done the research, so62100:43:18.320 --> 00:43:19.699
I don't know. Maybe you've done it. But do you62200:43:19.719 --> 00:43:23.340
think Tombland is a land full of tombs or an62300:43:23.400 --> 00:43:24.139
amusement park?62400:43:26.949 --> 00:43:32.650
Well, to quote my wife, a cemetery is known as62500:43:32.730 --> 00:43:35.519
a funeral park. So it could be one or the other.62600:43:35.980 --> 00:43:39.619
It could be a cemetery, or it could be an62700:43:39.800 --> 00:43:40.420
amusement park.62800:43:41.280 --> 00:43:44.019
Fun for us, and not so fun for the people62900:43:44.059 --> 00:43:46.659
who live there. Right.63000:43:46.860 --> 00:43:49.639
It's more than likely a cemetery, but it's fascinating that63100:43:49.679 --> 00:43:50.880
they named it Tombland.63200:43:50.900 --> 00:43:55.699
Yeah. Well, now, I guess the biggest one of all63300:43:55.739 --> 00:44:03.469
these is probably Norwich Castle. So specifically, what seems... I'm sorry,63400:44:03.530 --> 00:44:07.480
a castle seems almost legally required in many cases to63500:44:07.500 --> 00:44:09.480
be haunted, it seems, right? No matter the castle. We've63600:44:09.500 --> 00:44:12.139
got castles here in Cleveland that are considered haunted.63700:44:12.159 --> 00:44:12.920
Right.63800:44:13.360 --> 00:44:16.159
So what exactly is it about Norwich Castle?63900:44:18.280 --> 00:44:23.079
I mean, Norwich Castle is not special to the castle64000:44:24.519 --> 00:44:28.519
mythology of ghosts being there, of course. It's accumulated numerous64100:44:28.539 --> 00:44:31.869
ghost stories over the years, which isn't surprising at all.64200:44:32.550 --> 00:44:36.530
because it is very old. It's nearly impossible to separate64300:44:36.570 --> 00:44:40.920
the psychology of the building from the experiences people report.64400:44:41.500 --> 00:44:44.920
And again, you see this throughout castles throughout the world,64500:44:45.019 --> 00:44:49.239
not just the U.S. or England. You're standing inside an64600:44:49.320 --> 00:44:53.639
ancient castle. You know people suffered there. You know people64700:44:53.719 --> 00:44:59.159
died during those periods of history. You're surrounded by stories, walls,64800:44:59.280 --> 00:45:06.150
and strange acoustics. Then something moves in your peripheral vision.64900:45:06.769 --> 00:45:08.949
And you're like, what happened? Was it a ghost? What65000:45:08.989 --> 00:45:17.630
is that? Is the thing there right there? And I65100:45:17.659 --> 00:45:20.559
don't want to look straight at it. We had this65200:45:20.760 --> 00:45:23.829
kind of... happened to us when we did the investigation65300:45:23.869 --> 00:45:26.610
in Jeffrey Dahmer's house. We knew the history there, and65400:45:26.710 --> 00:45:30.130
that in and of itself tells you a story that65500:45:32.309 --> 00:45:37.329
is very, very horrible. That's what makes locations like Norwich65600:45:37.369 --> 00:45:42.639
Castle fascinating. The environment itself is a history, and a65700:45:42.679 --> 00:45:44.840
lot of times it's not a good history.65800:45:45.239 --> 00:45:50.800
Right. No, 100%. And I think that's one thing that's just... No,65900:45:50.840 --> 00:45:54.000
I think that's one thing that's always fascinating about castles66000:45:54.360 --> 00:45:59.219
is the events that have taken place there. Because there's66100:45:59.239 --> 00:46:01.179
not typically just one person who lives in a castle.66200:46:01.239 --> 00:46:05.280
It's generations of people who tend to reside in those castles.66300:46:05.659 --> 00:46:08.619
And so we tend to get those stories from those66400:46:08.760 --> 00:46:12.440
people who have witnessed things, and then that gets passed down.66500:46:12.719 --> 00:46:15.000
And again, much like the whole telephone effect, yes, some66600:46:15.019 --> 00:46:19.760
of that thing becomes kind of over-elaborated. But a lot66700:46:19.800 --> 00:46:23.079
of it does come from some significant truth as well,66800:46:23.139 --> 00:46:28.440
just as many paranormal story, haunting stories comes to be. Yeah,66900:46:28.619 --> 00:46:29.019
for sure.67000:46:30.719 --> 00:46:37.969
Now we see this legend throughout multiple cultures again, just67100:46:38.010 --> 00:46:40.550
like a lot of these others. And that's the legend67200:46:40.570 --> 00:46:46.050
of the gray lady. And apparently Norwich has the required67300:46:46.130 --> 00:46:48.670
British haunting known as the gray lady.67400:46:49.300 --> 00:46:50.519
Yeah.67500:46:50.639 --> 00:46:52.199
Who's the Grey Lady in Norwich?67600:46:53.440 --> 00:46:57.900
So the Grey Lady is one of the spectral figures67700:46:58.019 --> 00:47:03.030
associated with Norwich folklore. And the quote-unquote Grey Lady is67800:47:03.269 --> 00:47:07.269
actually a recurring type of ghost or theme throughout Britain.67900:47:07.909 --> 00:47:13.250
Usually it's a woman associated with tragedy, death, betrayal, lost love,68000:47:14.860 --> 00:47:18.070
or some historical location even. And we have something very68100:47:18.130 --> 00:47:20.230
similar here in the U.S. known as the white lady.68200:47:20.869 --> 00:47:25.400
Almost identical, right? Right. But Norwich has its own traditions68300:47:25.760 --> 00:47:31.440
involving a gray lady. What's fascinating to me personally isn't68400:47:31.519 --> 00:47:35.670
simply whether one particular apparition exists, but it's why the68500:47:35.710 --> 00:47:40.289
same archetype keeps appearing in different locations. You know, I68600:47:40.769 --> 00:47:42.690
mentioned the white lady. We have the gray lady. Then68700:47:42.710 --> 00:47:46.989
there's the woman in black. different stories like that. And68800:47:47.039 --> 00:47:53.659
these are completely separate ghost stories that evolved similarly in68900:47:53.760 --> 00:47:57.539
some way. And the question is, do people really witness69000:47:57.579 --> 00:48:01.530
these things? Or is it just a story that's originated69100:48:01.550 --> 00:48:05.409
in Europe, made its way overseas, and then it was69200:48:05.570 --> 00:48:10.489
reinterpreted here in the U.S. or in North America, I69300:48:10.530 --> 00:48:10.949
should say.69400:48:11.650 --> 00:48:11.869
Right.69500:48:12.190 --> 00:48:17.829
Yeah. And again... the U S specifically is a, a69600:48:17.889 --> 00:48:21.369
mixing pot. That's not to say that around the world69700:48:21.630 --> 00:48:24.929
now there, there isn't that similar type of thing going69800:48:25.010 --> 00:48:28.050
on where folklore is mixing with other folklore.69900:48:28.159 --> 00:48:28.449
Right.70000:48:29.090 --> 00:48:34.699
Um, but yeah. And, uh, you know, in Latin folklore,70100:48:34.739 --> 00:48:40.400
there's La Lorena. Um, and I don't know why, but70200:48:40.440 --> 00:48:41.760
it always involves a woman.70300:48:42.079 --> 00:48:44.380
It does always involve a woman. Can men not be,70400:48:44.820 --> 00:48:47.579
upset that they were abandoned, betrayed and lost the love.70500:48:47.679 --> 00:48:50.820
And I mean, back, I dealt back to the tragedy,70600:48:50.840 --> 00:48:59.849
like probably not men were supposed to be the, the strong, uh, uh, silent.70700:48:59.489 --> 00:49:02.550
Type where the women were always, and I hate to70800:49:02.590 --> 00:49:04.530
say it this way because I do not like the70900:49:04.610 --> 00:49:09.210
list persona, but, um, they were, they were considered weak.71000:49:09.349 --> 00:49:13.329
They were considered emotional, hysterical, um.71100:49:14.199 --> 00:49:16.289
I'm emotional and sometimes hysterical.71200:49:16.289 --> 00:49:20.090
I i all humans are so why it was one71300:49:20.110 --> 00:49:21.909
sex over the air doesn't make any sense to me71400:49:22.110 --> 00:49:27.699
um but yeah the the the legends of the the71500:49:27.800 --> 00:49:32.199
ladies will say that gray black white um and it's71600:49:32.280 --> 00:49:34.719
always has to do with their garb not their skin71700:49:34.780 --> 00:49:37.800
tone or anything like that it's always their garb um71800:49:39.440 --> 00:49:44.280
Even we went to Sims, North Dakota, and there is71900:49:44.340 --> 00:49:50.110
a white lady in the church in Sims, North Dakota. Right. So, yeah,72000:49:50.550 --> 00:49:53.269
it's one of those things where it's hard to determine72100:49:53.289 --> 00:49:58.909
where these legends came from, but also what had to72200:49:58.949 --> 00:50:02.199
have happened to these women to cause them to be72300:50:02.719 --> 00:50:08.679
ghosts and very, very. I won't say evil, malevolent ghosts. Right.72400:50:09.079 --> 00:50:11.579
And that's for people who've actually encountered and spent any72500:50:11.619 --> 00:50:15.340
time with these particular individuals, because obviously there are people72600:50:15.400 --> 00:50:18.380
who see these spirit entities or whatever you want to72700:50:18.420 --> 00:50:21.429
call them and just keep driving. And in those cases,72800:50:21.489 --> 00:50:23.690
it very well could just be a mist, you know,72900:50:23.730 --> 00:50:25.889
a fog or something like that, that happens. It takes73000:50:25.969 --> 00:50:30.489
shape of a woman wearing a dress. So in those cases,73100:50:30.690 --> 00:50:34.110
it's mistaken identity. But nonetheless, there are stories and there73200:50:34.250 --> 00:50:37.099
are supposed videos and of course today we can't say73300:50:37.280 --> 00:50:39.480
oh go check out the video because everything's freaking AI73400:50:40.559 --> 00:50:44.469
so we don't know but yeah but we are getting73500:50:44.730 --> 00:50:45.929
close to the end of the show here so we73600:50:45.949 --> 00:50:49.829
should probably chat about maybe oh let's see we got73700:50:49.849 --> 00:50:51.989
so many things one more little thing I think I73800:50:52.010 --> 00:50:54.230
think we got time for one more thing and that73900:50:54.469 --> 00:50:59.360
is the witches and the devil of Norwich and that74000:50:59.380 --> 00:51:01.000
is not to say that they are of Norwich but74100:51:01.039 --> 00:51:08.059
they are included in Norwich folklore So, does Norwich have74200:51:08.360 --> 00:51:10.480
much of a witch folklore?74300:51:12.179 --> 00:51:16.079
It absolutely does. I mean, again, around the world. And74400:51:16.099 --> 00:51:19.809
that's another place where we have to distinguish folklore about74500:51:19.829 --> 00:51:24.110
witches from historical persecution of people accused of witchcraft. We've74600:51:24.150 --> 00:51:28.889
talked about witchcraft a lot on this podcast over the74700:51:28.969 --> 00:51:36.369
past year. And Folklore contains stories of curses, magical cures,74800:51:36.469 --> 00:51:44.590
witches controlling weather, strains, supernatural illnesses, protective charms, and, of course,74900:51:44.750 --> 00:51:47.750
encounters with the devil, dancing in the devil in the75000:51:47.789 --> 00:51:53.440
pale moonlight, as it were. But actually, which accusations could75100:51:53.480 --> 00:51:59.139
have devastated Norwich and the people therein?75200:51:59.260 --> 00:51:59.510
And....75300:52:01.210 --> 00:52:02.369
We saw it here in the U.S.75400:52:02.389 --> 00:52:02.550
Too.75500:52:02.570 --> 00:52:04.389
It was actually worse here in the U.S. than it75600:52:04.429 --> 00:52:11.429
was in Europe. So you have this uncomfortable overlap where75700:52:11.630 --> 00:52:17.090
supernatural beliefs weren't entertainment at that time. It was very,75800:52:17.139 --> 00:52:22.659
very serious. People sometimes genuinely believed magic was being used75900:52:22.800 --> 00:52:23.619
against them.76000:52:25.920 --> 00:52:26.219
Yeah.76100:52:27.239 --> 00:52:32.989
And there's also this recurring theme in Norfolk involving the76200:52:33.050 --> 00:52:34.510
devil himself, right?76300:52:35.090 --> 00:52:39.300
Absolutely. And the devil shows up constantly in British folklore,76400:52:39.409 --> 00:52:46.199
even in U.S. folklore. Sometimes he's terrifying. Sometimes he's surprisingly stupid.76500:52:46.860 --> 00:52:51.019
We see that in the legend of Stingy Jack. And76600:52:51.039 --> 00:52:54.699
we've talked about that a lot on the show during Halloween.76700:52:55.329 --> 00:53:00.679
People trick him. They bargain with him. He creates... geographical features.76800:53:00.780 --> 00:53:05.719
He's blamed for storms and strange natural events. And that76900:53:05.760 --> 00:53:12.570
goes back to even the gods of ancient history too. Right.77000:53:13.070 --> 00:53:13.670
And it's crazy.77100:53:14.050 --> 00:53:14.530
Oh no, go ahead.77200:53:14.849 --> 00:53:18.360
No, no, you go. I will sit here for the next. Well,77300:53:18.389 --> 00:53:24.159
all I was going to say is that it's, it's77400:53:24.260 --> 00:53:28.099
funny because he's almost a supernatural folk character. And, uh,77500:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.980
Because people seem to outsmart him in the stories, it's77600:53:33.019 --> 00:53:37.639
really hilarious. Because ultimately in those stories, he's the ultimate77700:53:37.679 --> 00:53:43.300
embodiment of evil, which apparently keeps losing contract disputes to77800:53:43.420 --> 00:53:51.280
English farmers. And not to mention, Johnny played a better fiddle.77900:53:57.539 --> 00:53:58.219
But anyway, so.78000:53:59.050 --> 00:54:01.630
it's just, it's really funny. You think about like how78100:54:01.650 --> 00:54:05.489
people interpret these stories and why, and in many cases78200:54:05.590 --> 00:54:08.760
is to diminish the idea of fear, this feeling of78300:54:08.820 --> 00:54:10.739
fear and make it lesser. And then now in some78400:54:10.760 --> 00:54:15.119
cases it's because people simply disregard the idea of the devil.78500:54:15.139 --> 00:54:19.610
Well, it's sometimes easier to blame things on something that,78600:54:20.750 --> 00:54:27.429
and again, I'm only saying this in regards to general folklore. It's,78700:54:28.099 --> 00:54:33.250
easy to blame things that we think don't necessarily exist today.78800:54:33.469 --> 00:54:37.230
Back then it was absolutely a hundred percent belief that78900:54:37.809 --> 00:54:42.849
the gods, the devil were to blame for these things.79000:54:43.289 --> 00:54:43.550
Right.79100:54:45.150 --> 00:54:50.059
Absolutely. And we still do it today. I mean, look79200:54:50.139 --> 00:54:54.000
at how many Christians are like, well, God didn't want79300:54:54.039 --> 00:54:56.460
me to have that, or the devil had a hand79400:54:56.519 --> 00:54:57.590
in this, things like that.79500:54:57.949 --> 00:55:01.409
It's a blaming thing. Yeah, being in fingers.79600:55:01.849 --> 00:55:06.610
Yeah, we're trying to blame things that are within our control,79700:55:06.639 --> 00:55:09.900
and we don't want to take the blame for it.79800:55:10.219 --> 00:55:15.179
Right, it's refusing to accept your own faults. Right. And79900:55:15.219 --> 00:55:17.429
not that everything is your fault. Like, obviously, you can't80000:55:17.469 --> 00:55:19.989
control some circumstances, but to simply blame it on something else.80100:55:20.010 --> 00:55:22.909
It's like, man, we live in a world that just sucks.80200:55:22.929 --> 00:55:26.010
Like medical problems. That's out of your control. But it80300:55:26.070 --> 00:55:29.489
doesn't mean that a god or a devil is to blame.80400:55:29.849 --> 00:55:32.110
Right. 100%.80500:55:32.829 --> 00:55:36.349
Any final thoughts before we close out on this? Well,80600:55:36.369 --> 00:55:36.829
just that.80700:55:38.449 --> 00:55:44.059
Norwich is full of folklore and horrific things and beautiful things.80800:55:44.199 --> 00:55:46.460
And it's been one of those stories or one of80900:55:46.500 --> 00:55:51.460
those places that have always inspired stories and has inspired81000:55:51.500 --> 00:55:54.639
me to constantly look into it and research and learn81100:55:54.679 --> 00:55:57.889
more about it because they are so captivating. And I81200:55:58.190 --> 00:56:03.429
think that's something that, again, despite Norwich itself, just is81300:56:03.869 --> 00:56:07.380
transversal throughout the world. Uh, everywhere you look, there are81400:56:07.409 --> 00:56:10.260
stories like this and it's fun to see the similarities81500:56:10.380 --> 00:56:15.019
and wonder which, you know, story came first. You know,81600:56:15.079 --> 00:56:17.780
it's kind of like, you know, which came first, the81700:56:17.800 --> 00:56:19.460
chicken or the egg, right? It's like, well, where did81800:56:19.480 --> 00:56:22.590
this originate? Uh, and when you really do the research,81900:56:22.619 --> 00:56:25.349
you start to see that some of these stories did82000:56:25.449 --> 00:56:30.510
have actual origin points and they just spread, uh, based on, uh,82100:56:31.349 --> 00:56:33.070
the traveling people basically.82200:56:33.730 --> 00:56:34.070
For sure.82300:56:34.369 --> 00:56:37.050
And it's really cool. And some of these stories, sure,82400:56:37.090 --> 00:56:39.889
they're just folklore. They're just make-believe. But some of these82500:56:39.909 --> 00:56:42.710
that we've talked about tonight are legitimate. And maybe we82600:56:42.750 --> 00:56:50.800
don't have proof. But that doesn't dismiss the fact or82700:56:50.820 --> 00:56:54.900
the ability or possibility that these entities and things actually82800:56:54.980 --> 00:56:57.559
do exist. And so I do think it's important to82900:56:57.619 --> 00:57:02.510
keep a good mind on the idea that these things83000:57:02.610 --> 00:57:06.570
could be real and to be aware that maybe, possibly,83100:57:07.170 --> 00:57:11.030
there's something like a black shuck that is potentially of83200:57:11.170 --> 00:57:13.980
evil origin. But on the flip side, that there's also83300:57:14.099 --> 00:57:16.920
one that is plenty good and wants to give you83400:57:16.940 --> 00:57:17.300
good luck.83500:57:18.360 --> 00:57:21.320
Yeah, I agree with that 100%.83600:57:21.380 --> 00:57:23.619
So, I think it is about time to wrap out83700:57:23.639 --> 00:57:26.889
this show tonight. I thank you all for joining us83800:57:27.010 --> 00:57:29.909
on this wonderful journey to Norwich and I hope you83900:57:29.949 --> 00:57:33.579
enjoyed it. If you have any questions, comments, concerns, or84000:57:33.639 --> 00:57:36.480
just simply want to say hello, feel free to message84100:57:36.559 --> 00:57:39.619
us or email us as well. So we hope you've84200:57:39.659 --> 00:57:42.670
enjoyed all of the information we provided today. And if84300:57:42.690 --> 00:57:46.230
you found something different or we got something wrong, we'd84400:57:46.309 --> 00:57:49.130
love to hear from you. Also, make sure to join84500:57:49.170 --> 00:57:54.360
our Paratroopers community on Facebook to keep the conversation going. Also,84600:57:54.380 --> 00:57:58.719
if you're interested, and we encourage you to, Join our84700:57:58.760 --> 00:58:01.380
supporters club on Spreaker where you will get access to84800:58:01.500 --> 00:58:06.409
extra content and ad-free versions of our episodes. For example,84900:58:06.469 --> 00:58:13.329
some of those extra conversations and content is actually off-air85000:58:13.409 --> 00:58:15.630
conversations with many of our guests. So you can learn85100:58:15.650 --> 00:58:17.409
a little more about them and their lives and the85200:58:17.449 --> 00:58:20.119
things that they do and just have fun. So definitely85300:58:20.179 --> 00:58:23.269
fun to check out. So until next week, you'll find us.85400:58:23.340 --> 00:58:25.500
Same time, same channel. My name is Eric.85500:58:26.239 --> 00:58:27.820
And I'm Justin. Peace!
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