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Oct. 14, 2026

Are The Gods Listening? Exploring Devotional Witchcraft w/Kenneth Freeman II

Are the Gods Listening? Exploring Devotional Witchcraft w/Kenneth Freeman II What happens when witchcraft stops being primarily about spells and becomes a relationship with the Divine? Dr. Kenneth “KC” Freeman II joins Justin and Erik on ParaTruth:...

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Are the Gods Listening? Exploring Devotional Witchcraft w/Kenneth Freeman II
What happens when witchcraft stops being primarily about spells and becomes a relationship with the Divine?

Dr. Kenneth “KC” Freeman II joins Justin and Erik on ParaTruth: Reborn to discuss his book, Devotional Witchcraft: Honoring the Gods with Magic and Ritual.

KC is a licensed clinical social worker, educator, author, spiritual leader, co-host of the Roots & Realms Podcast, initiated Minoan Brotherhood priest, and longtime devotee of the Gods.

In this conversation, we explore:
• What devotional witchcraft actually means
• Hard polytheism and gods with agency
• KC's journey from Baptist Christianity into Pagan practice
• Personal gnosis vs. historical tradition
• Cultural grounding and spiritual responsibility
• Modern spiritual syncretism
• Building a daily devotional practice
• Discernment and spiritual experiences
• Personal sovereignty and devotion
• What happens when the gods tell you “no”

Devotional Witchcraft challenges practitioners to slow down, examine where their traditions come from, and approach spiritual relationships with curiosity, responsibility, and humility.

Guest Bio: Dr. Kenneth "KC" Freeman II is a licensed clinical social worker, educator, author, and spiritual leader whose work bridges mental health, spirituality, culture, and community. He serves as an adjunct professor of social work at North Carolina Central University, where he teaches courses on diversity, research, and social work practice, while also leading community mental health services as a Clinical Team Lead.

KC is also one of the co-host of the Roots & Realms Podcast, where he explores modern Paganism, devotional practice, occult traditions, and the lived experiences of BIPOC practitioners.

As an initiated Minoan Brotherhood priest and lifelong devotee of the Gods, KC's spiritual path emphasizes devotional witchcraft, personal sovereignty, and building meaningful relationships with the divine. His forthcoming book, Devotional Witchcraft, explores magic as a sacred practice rooted in devotion, transformation, and authentic spiritual connection.
Whether in the classroom, the therapy room, or sacred space, KC is passionate about helping people reclaim their power, deepen their understanding of themselves, and create lives grounded in purpose, healing, and spiritual authenticity.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/paratruth-reborn--6273542/support.

Thanks for listening!

WEBVTT

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Coming up on Paratruth Reborn, we're going to be talking

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to Kenneth Freeman II about his book, Devotional Witchcraft, Honoring

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the Gods with Magic and Ritual.

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Welcome to Paratruth.

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What's going on, Paratroothers? Welcome to another.

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Episode of Paratrooth Reborn.

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My name is Justin.

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And I'm Eric.

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And tonight, we're exploring devotional witchcraft, hard polytheism, personal gnosis,

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cultural responsibility, and what happens when magic becomes a thing.

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less about control, and more about communion. Casey, welcome to

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Paratruth Reborn.

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Thank you for having me.

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Absolutely.

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So before we get into the book itself, something I

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found fascinating is that you were a Baptist Christian and

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then went into polytheism. What was that journey like for

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you when you started it?

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Um, it's interesting because, so yeah, I was raised in

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the church, naturally. I'm from the South. My family is

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from the South, right? I grew up in a little

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town called Rocky Mount where there is literally a church

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on every corner. And so even though I grew up

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in the church, I will say that I've always had

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this leaning towards polytheism. I just didn't know what to

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call it at that time. I didn't know anything about

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it because, you know, I didn't have any frame of reference.

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Until I got to elementary school and I went to

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what was considered a school for quote-unquote gifted students or whatever.

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At the end of the day, I really think we

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all just had ADHD. And we had this class where

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your English and your social studies were put together. What

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you would learn about in one was reflected in the

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other classes. So within our social studies or history, we

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were learning about ancient Greece and Hellenic cultures. And so

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within the English class, we were reading some pared down mythologies.

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And then at the end of the week, the two

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classes would merge on Friday. You had to do something together.

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And so we reenacted one of the mythologies that we

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had read about, which was what they called the Kidnapping

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of Persephone. And everybody had their own little part. And

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I just vividly remember my part being I played the

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role of the god Poseidon. And we each had to

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try to convince Demeter to bring fertility back to the earth.

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And afterwards, I just had this thing. I could not

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let it go. I could not let what I had

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learned about these deities and spirits and mythologies, I could

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not let it go. So my parents had gotten me

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at that time, the kids version of the encyclopedia. And

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so I read what I could from there. And then

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I read what I could from the actual encyclopedia. And

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then I'm really dating myself. We happened to have a

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personal computer in the house. So the only search engine

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at that time was Ask Jeeves. And so I started

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putting in these deity names and things and I was

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getting a bunch of junk. But eventually I did get

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a link that referenced Wicca and I had never heard

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about it. And so I started doing my reading about

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it and I was like, this seems like something I

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could be interested in. And it took me a little

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while because again, I grew up in a family that's

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very religious and very heavily, you know, Baptist Kojic holiness.

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So it took me some time, but eventually I formulated

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a plan. And I saved up my allowance money. And

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I went to, again, dating myself, Walden Books. Because we

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didn't even have a Barnes & Noble's where I was

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from at that time. We had Walden.

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I remember Walden Books. And I loved Walden.

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And because I'm already an avid reader, it was not

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a big thing for me to spend my money at

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Walden and buy some books. Tamora Pierce, Mercedes Lackey, something

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like that. But I snuck in. a copy of Scott

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Cunningham's Living Wicca. And that is really what started me

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on this path. Probably what I was in, I would

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say I started reading about it in middle school, but

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actively practicing once I graduated high school.

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It was all my own.

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It was in college and really had the freedom to

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explore what I wanted to explore. Yeah. Okay.

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Well, now you said that when you were like studying

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Wicca or reading up on it, there was something about

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it that just felt like it was you. What was

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it about Wicca that really felt familiar to you? And

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what you actually started learning about it, what felt just

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completely foreign?

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For me, when I started to read about it, what

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resonated with me more than anything that I had experienced

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at that time in the church was relationship over religion.

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I feel like at that time, I remember I used

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to be so confused in church because we would go

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and you would hear the sermon and the pastor would

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talk about what you should and should not do and

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what Jesus would and would not do and so on

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and so forth. And people would catch the Holy Ghost

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and dance and speak in tongues and all of these things.

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And then right after church, it was like, none of

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that really mattered because you were still drinking. You were

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still messing with some married man or whatever, like all

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of these things, because I was always a little bit

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more mature as a child, so I didn't really play

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with my younger cousins like that. I would sit around

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and listen to my aunties and uncles gossip. So I

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would be like, this to me doesn't make sense because

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if you say you believe in this God of this

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church and this is your fear and things like that,

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then why do you still behave in this manner? Does

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that mean you actually don't believe or is this God

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not real?

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And so.

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In reading Living Wicca, I felt that there was more

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of a call to develop an actual relationship. It wasn't dogmatic.

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It wasn't that you had to adhere to these specific rules.

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But there was this need to develop a relationship with

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your gods, your spirits, your ancestors. And so for me,

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that was what I was looking for. And that's what

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I felt like was the familiar part. I don't feel

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like there was anything that was really foreign to me.

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It was just that I had not heard these things

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spoken of in that same way. The reverence for nature,

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personal power. These things were not familiar, but they weren't

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foreign to where I could not see myself integrating them

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to my life, if that makes sense.

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No, it makes complete sense. I grew up in the

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Roman Catholic Church and then eventually became a born-again Christian

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and was going through to a Baptist church. And I

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felt the same way. You'd spend so much time with

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people in the church and outside of it, it was

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very different. And it took me a while before I

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realized that it was a relationship with God over just

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the constant going to church every Sunday and playing the part.

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And for me, it's a little different because I still

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have like my Christian roots is still my foundation. You know,

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the Holy Trinity is my foundation. That's what I truly

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believe in. But the spiritual aspect of my life transcends

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a little more. It definitely dives out deeper and goes

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into different aspects of spirituality, including things like various pagan practices,

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Wicca included. And it's definitely one of those things that

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I've noticed for me. It's like, well, once I started

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making that switch and like accepting it and giving into it,

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it's like, oh, I feel deeper connection with Christ now

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than I did before. And, you know, obviously it's not

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right for everybody and that's, you know, now they're here

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saying they say whatever, but it's definitely something that was

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just like aha moment. And so I definitely feel that

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with you. And I think that's an incredible story and

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way for you to come across that too.

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Yeah.

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And I think that, like you said, like when you

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really begin to explore things for yourself, and you begin

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to develop relationship, you begin to realize that everything can

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kind of enhance everything else, right? Like when I first

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started this, I had this belief that I had to

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leave everything from the church and everything from my familial

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practices because it could not fit here. And there was

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still something missing for me within Wicca because I still,

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you know, even though I had these issues, I would say,

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with the church and how people behaved, there were still

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aspects of the church that I loved, that I still

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love to this day. I grew up singing in the choir.

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I still love gospel music. I still go to gospel concerts, right?

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And it took me a while to realize that me

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still loving gospel music and still having that feeling of

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feeling something greater than myself within gospel music does not

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take away from the path that I am on. It

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simply enhances it because it helps me to understand the

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myriad ways in which the divine shows up in our lives.

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And I recognize that my God, are not lessened by

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my love, continued love of gospel music. And it only

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helps to create a more robust spirituality for me. Like

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you said, it's not for everybody. There are some people

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who cannot take from column a and column b and

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create something for them that is expressive but for me

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that is what works.

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Now the the title of the book is devotional witchcraft

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what what is devotional witchcraft in your your words.

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Um devotional witchcraft is to me the counter argument to

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Simply always asking the gods or asking your ancestors or

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asking the spirits of the land that you live on

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for something all of the time. Devotional witchcraft is, again,

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taking my experience from the church about building that actual

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relationship with your deities in which you're not always asking.

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Sometimes you're just talking to them about your day. Sometimes

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you're just giving thanks. Sometimes you're just acknowledging. It is

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about integrating a relationship with the divine in your everyday

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life that does not require a big ritual. It does

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not require, you know, a whole song and dance every time.

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It's just like creating a friendship just with the divine.

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And our friendships don't have to be big. I don't

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have to, it does not take a whole lot for

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me and my friends to get together and laugh and

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and share and cry and do whatever and support one another.

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And that for me is what devotional witchcraft is. It's

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that everyday integration of the gods that I have developed

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relationship with into my life in such a way that

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I don't always have to worry about spell work. I

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don't always have to worry about creating ritual because I

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have developed relationship with my gods, my ancestors and the

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spirits that surround me. that they now have a concern

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about my life as well. So there are times where,

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you know, other people I will see, you know, talk

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about needing or wanting to create a ritual or somebody

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to create a ritual for them for money or something

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like that, because finances are not, you know, going right.

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Whereas there have been times where I have just said

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like that I could use an extra couple of hundred dollars.

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I got this coming up or a tire or something.

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And It happens for me. And I know that it

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happened because my gods are actually concerned about me because

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I actually have a relationship with them. I do not

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treat them as vending machines or ATMs. I treat them

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as people who are walking on my path with me

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and want me to succeed. And for me, that is

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really the core of devotional with track. Okay. All right.

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So now, I mean, obviously when people think of what

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they do typically think of spells and manifestation, or magic,

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how do you incorporate those type of practices? It should

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be good if I knew how to talk. How do

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you incorporate that type of practice into your relationships? And

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can you give us kind of an example of what

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you might use a spell for, as opposed to simply

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just talking to your gods?

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Sure.

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So....

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There are times, and usually I don't do a whole

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lot of spell work for myself. A lot of times

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it often involves someone else that I'm connected to needing

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something or me seeing a need and asking them, you know,

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can I do a working for you, right? And devotional

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witchcraft does not negate magic. It does not negate ritual,

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but what it does say is Your magic and your

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ritual should not always be asking, asking, asking. None of

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us would keep a friend around us who was always

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asking to borrow 20, 30, $ 40, or can I sleep

234
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on your couch every other day? None of us would

235
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keep that kind of person around us. The magic that

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I work, for instance, the primary, I would say one

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of the primary goddesses that I have developed relationship with

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over the years is Hera. and especially the pre-Homeric, kind

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of pre-Hellenic era, the goddess of sovereignty in her own right,

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the goddess who oaths were sworn in her name, the

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goddess who gave kingship. And in working with her, I

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have learned and developed my own confidence and my own sovereignty,

243
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especially as a clinical social worker working in public health

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and mental health. She walks with me and walks with

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me when I'm going into spaces and advocating for communities

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that I work with, when I'm going into these governmental

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offices and things like that, trying to expand Medicaid and

248
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trying to get additional services. And so I may have

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someone who is, not confident about an interview that's coming up. Um,

250
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and they're trying to get a, um, they're trying to

251
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get a raise or they're trying to get a new

252
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job or something like that. And because I have a

253
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relationship with Hera, I may do a working for her

254
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with her asking her to pass those elements of who

255
00:15:23.710 --> 00:15:28.860
she is onto this person. Um, that is kind of

256
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the ritual or the magic that I work. That's not

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to say that's all that I work. And there are

258
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times that I have tried everything that I can possibly

259
00:15:38.299 --> 00:15:42.100
do on the mundane level to make something happen. And so, yes,

260
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I will go and I will do my rituals and

261
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magic for manifestation. But that's not my first. That's not

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the first thing that I'm going to pull out of

263
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my bag.

264
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Right.

265
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It's, again, something I take from the church. Faith without

266
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work is dead.

267
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Right.

268
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I still believe that magic alone cannot do it. You know,

269
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I was taught that magic takes the path of least resistance.

270
00:16:06.019 --> 00:16:08.019
So if I'm trying to manifest something like a job,

271
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but I never put in an application, it's never going

272
00:16:10.129 --> 00:16:13.370
to happen for me. And so it still has to

273
00:16:13.409 --> 00:16:16.789
be the work with it. But when I am approaching

274
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my gods and my ancestors, it is because I know

275
00:16:20.929 --> 00:16:23.809
that they have a care and concern for me. And

276
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I'm asking them to step in how best they see fit.

277
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And because I know that they know me because we

278
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have developed a relationship, I don't have to give a

279
00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:34.960
whole lot of instruction of this is how I want

280
00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:37.500
it to be done. I can simply say, this is

281
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what I'm looking for. This is what I need. And

282
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they know how best, what would best serve me in

283
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:43.340
that situation.

284
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Now you've mentioned, you know, you don't want to use

285
00:16:50.809 --> 00:16:54.059
it as an ATM transaction or you don't, You don't

286
00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.100
want to be that friend that's always asking for things.

287
00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:07.339
Is there any consequences for being greedy or asking for

288
00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:11.240
too much from a certain deity or multiple deities?

289
00:17:13.059 --> 00:17:16.880
So I'm a hard polytheist, right? So I truly believe

290
00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:20.569
that the gods have their own agency. And so.

291
00:17:23.069 --> 00:17:25.630
I will say it depends on the deity, right? I

292
00:17:25.670 --> 00:17:28.490
have relationship with the deities that I have relationship with,

293
00:17:28.549 --> 00:17:33.359
but I think about it like this. If you walk

294
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.279
up to a random stranger on the street, whether you're

295
00:17:37.299 --> 00:17:40.079
in the South or, I mean, people always say people have,

296
00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.000
you know, in the South we have Southern hospitality. I'm

297
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:47.150
here to say it don't go that far. You're in

298
00:17:47.210 --> 00:17:49.410
the South or you're on the West Coast, whether you,

299
00:17:49.710 --> 00:17:53.480
if you walk up, to 10 random people and you say, hey,

300
00:17:54.099 --> 00:17:59.089
give me $ 100, you are liable to get 10 different responses.

301
00:17:59.569 --> 00:18:02.029
Somebody may just suck their teeth, roll their eyes and

302
00:18:02.069 --> 00:18:05.089
walk away from you. Somebody might find it in their

303
00:18:05.150 --> 00:18:08.609
heart to give it to you. Somebody else might punch

304
00:18:08.650 --> 00:18:14.150
you in the face. It is completely up to that deity.

305
00:18:14.230 --> 00:18:16.910
It is completely up to that spirit. It is completely

306
00:18:16.990 --> 00:18:20.869
up to that ancestor how they choose to respond. And

307
00:18:20.970 --> 00:18:26.450
that response is usually based in how you approached, right?

308
00:18:27.029 --> 00:18:30.940
I don't want anyone to think that I'm trying to

309
00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.759
say never ask the gods, never ask your ancestors, never ask,

310
00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:38.940
you know, the spirits that you are connected to for assistance.

311
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.589
I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is

312
00:18:42.049 --> 00:18:46.089
be very aware that these are not archetypes. These are not,

313
00:18:47.589 --> 00:18:50.839
you know, pieces on a Monopoly board that, hey, today

314
00:18:50.900 --> 00:18:53.220
I want to be the thumbnail and tomorrow I want

315
00:18:53.259 --> 00:18:57.549
to be the doggie. These are deities. These are spirits.

316
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These are beings with their own agency, their right to

317
00:19:00.549 --> 00:19:03.250
say yes and their right to say no. And if

318
00:19:03.309 --> 00:19:07.089
you don't respect that, how they teach you to respect

319
00:19:07.130 --> 00:19:10.029
them is totally up to them in the same way

320
00:19:10.410 --> 00:19:12.730
that if you come to my door and And you

321
00:19:12.809 --> 00:19:15.809
ask me for $ 100 and I tell you no. And

322
00:19:15.910 --> 00:19:19.410
then you question me as to why I now have

323
00:19:19.450 --> 00:19:23.069
the right to teach you why it's a no. And

324
00:19:23.130 --> 00:19:25.880
depending on how I feel and how I woke up

325
00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:31.059
that morning, the lesson can be soft or because I

326
00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:34.259
hit my Capricorn, it can be scorched earth to make

327
00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:36.440
sure that you never return to my doorstep again.

328
00:19:37.779 --> 00:19:38.329
All right.

329
00:19:38.509 --> 00:19:39.160
That's fair enough.

330
00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:39.329
Yeah.

331
00:19:40.809 --> 00:19:44.680
Well, now, so when it comes to approaching a deity,

332
00:19:45.180 --> 00:19:48.029
how do you initiate or how have you initiated a

333
00:19:48.349 --> 00:19:51.680
connection with the ones that you've worked with? And I'm

334
00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:53.400
always saying, and there's always a double question.

335
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:53.819
I'm sorry.

336
00:19:54.900 --> 00:19:58.559
But and has there ever been a deity that chose

337
00:19:58.619 --> 00:19:59.359
not to work with you?

338
00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:03.000
Just didn't want to build that relationship? So.

339
00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:08.039
Usually for me with the gods that I have developed

340
00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:12.869
relationship with, it's always started with kind of those deja vu,

341
00:20:13.009 --> 00:20:17.670
synchronicity moments where I keep being drawn back to this

342
00:20:17.750 --> 00:20:21.549
particular deity for whatever reason. The name is just stuck

343
00:20:21.589 --> 00:20:24.759
in my head. A particular myth is stuck in my head.

344
00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:27.960
I go to bookstores all the time and I keep

345
00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:32.200
running across the same book. or the same topic about

346
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:35.710
this particular deity. And I take that as, okay, you

347
00:20:35.750 --> 00:20:38.869
may be reaching out to me. And so I begin

348
00:20:38.930 --> 00:20:43.569
to research who they were and how they were viewed

349
00:20:43.609 --> 00:20:47.220
and how they were interacted with through the cultural lens

350
00:20:47.619 --> 00:20:51.279
of where they come from. And then I begin to

351
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:57.390
assess what this means for me. Is this something that

352
00:20:57.450 --> 00:20:59.349
is missing in my life? Is this something that I've

353
00:20:59.369 --> 00:21:03.890
been trying to enhance? Is this something that I've experienced

354
00:21:03.910 --> 00:21:06.099
in my life? And therefore this deity may be reaching

355
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:07.940
out to me to say like, hey, you've had this

356
00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:10.859
experience and I am over this and I would like

357
00:21:10.900 --> 00:21:15.539
to help you through this situation. And as much as

358
00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:19.619
I can, I'm not a reconstructionist, right? I'm not trying

359
00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:24.269
to reconstruct how Hera was worshipped in antiquity, but I

360
00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:26.970
am trying to show her, just like I would with

361
00:21:27.029 --> 00:21:29.730
a friend, hey, I've learned this about you, and I

362
00:21:29.789 --> 00:21:33.089
know that you like these things. I know that in

363
00:21:33.450 --> 00:21:36.490
Hellenic culture, these items were sacred to you. So I

364
00:21:36.529 --> 00:21:40.049
may put together a little shrine or altar. I may, again,

365
00:21:40.150 --> 00:21:43.049
just begin to have those open conversations when I'm in

366
00:21:43.089 --> 00:21:45.490
the car, when I'm in my house, when I'm cooking, cleaning.

367
00:21:45.890 --> 00:21:48.509
I may try to observe some things that were observed

368
00:21:48.549 --> 00:21:52.690
in antiquity to say, you are welcome and see how

369
00:21:52.789 --> 00:21:56.309
she responds, how that deity responds. Do they begin to

370
00:21:56.349 --> 00:21:59.119
show up? Do those synchronicities, do those deja vu moments

371
00:21:59.619 --> 00:22:02.640
begin to increase? Do I begin to get messages through

372
00:22:02.740 --> 00:22:05.859
other means, dreams and things like that? And if so,

373
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:11.650
I continue to develop that relationship. I have not had

374
00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:16.470
a God say like, like I've said, like, you know, oh,

375
00:22:16.569 --> 00:22:20.029
I think I may be what this deity may be called.

376
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:23.000
calling me and then it's a no. But what I

377
00:22:23.099 --> 00:22:26.420
have had is a deity that helped me through a

378
00:22:26.500 --> 00:22:31.000
specific situation. And then once that was over and it

379
00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:34.759
was an illness and I was in the hospital for

380
00:22:34.819 --> 00:22:39.000
a whole year and a particular deity showed up at the,

381
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:42.269
oddly enough, showed up right at the beginning of the

382
00:22:42.309 --> 00:22:44.009
illness before I knew I was going to be as

383
00:22:44.150 --> 00:22:49.099
sick as I was. And she helped me through That year,

384
00:22:49.140 --> 00:22:51.920
which was the toughest year of my life, I was

385
00:22:52.579 --> 00:22:55.140
in and out of the hospital. My longest stay ended

386
00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:02.089
up being 13 weeks. Active, serious depression and all these

387
00:23:02.170 --> 00:23:05.690
things going on. And she helped me through that situation.

388
00:23:05.730 --> 00:23:08.630
And then at the end of the situation, she's like, hey,

389
00:23:08.670 --> 00:23:09.569
that was my job.

390
00:23:10.109 --> 00:23:10.619
I'm good.

391
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:14.259
Glad you made it through. Glad I was able to help.

392
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:17.339
And I have not felt her presence.

393
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:18.180
I have not.

394
00:23:20.299 --> 00:23:22.869
Had messages from her. And I struggled with that for

395
00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:25.329
a little while because I thought I did something wrong.

396
00:23:25.930 --> 00:23:29.269
And it was not until through my ancestors and my

397
00:23:29.390 --> 00:23:31.289
other gods that they were like, no, you didn't do

398
00:23:31.329 --> 00:23:35.430
anything wrong. But this particular thing, she was the best

399
00:23:35.490 --> 00:23:38.529
to help you through. And that was her job. And

400
00:23:38.569 --> 00:23:41.670
now she's moved on. And just like people, right? Gods

401
00:23:42.089 --> 00:23:44.329
and ancestors can come in our life for a season

402
00:23:44.890 --> 00:23:48.230
to get us through something. to help us overcome grief,

403
00:23:48.269 --> 00:23:50.809
to help us overcome illness, whatever that is. And then

404
00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:53.359
once we're over it, you know, they're like, okay, I'm

405
00:23:53.380 --> 00:23:56.079
good now. I did what I was supposed to do,

406
00:23:56.619 --> 00:23:58.140
and you got it the rest of the way.

407
00:23:59.299 --> 00:23:59.599
Okay.

408
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:08.019
So you've mentioned your journey into devotional practice. For somebody

409
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:13.099
who's listening tonight who's like, hey, this really resonates for me, what's...

410
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:17.890
a good first step for for them to take.

411
00:24:19.250 --> 00:24:21.529
I think the best first step is start small i

412
00:24:21.569 --> 00:24:23.509
think a lot of people when they want to develop

413
00:24:23.569 --> 00:24:28.670
relationship with deity they get overwhelmed because we're so in

414
00:24:28.710 --> 00:24:31.240
this world today stuck on this aesthetic thing so they

415
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:33.640
think they have to have the best statue they have

416
00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:36.299
to have a you know dedicate 10 feet in the

417
00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:38.640
home to a home shrine and things like it don't

418
00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:42.000
take all that it does not take a whole lot

419
00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:45.700
when you're genuine about Right. So I feel that the

420
00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:48.750
best thing is if you feel like, OK, I'm interested

421
00:24:48.789 --> 00:24:54.410
in devotional witchcraft, identify what deity, spirit or ancestor that

422
00:24:54.450 --> 00:24:57.119
it is that you want to first begin developing that

423
00:24:57.150 --> 00:25:01.940
relationship with and begin to research them. If it's an ancestor,

424
00:25:02.980 --> 00:25:05.119
ask who you got to ask about who they were

425
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:09.009
in life. and then begin to ask them to show

426
00:25:09.049 --> 00:25:11.349
you who they are now as an ancestor and how

427
00:25:11.430 --> 00:25:13.109
it is that they are trying to show up for

428
00:25:13.150 --> 00:25:16.369
you and what it is that they want to do

429
00:25:16.450 --> 00:25:20.349
for you. And then just begin to talk to them

430
00:25:20.569 --> 00:25:23.750
whenever you think about it, right? Again, I do a

431
00:25:23.809 --> 00:25:26.700
lot of my talking with my gods because I do

432
00:25:27.019 --> 00:25:29.519
tend to cook a lot because I'm still Southern. I

433
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:31.000
do a lot of it in the kitchen because that's

434
00:25:31.019 --> 00:25:32.900
what I saw my grandmother do. That's what I saw

435
00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:35.920
my mother do. even though I'm not talking to the

436
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.910
same God that they are talking to, that conversation has

437
00:25:40.990 --> 00:25:44.730
helped me immensely sometimes just being in my kitchen and

438
00:25:44.789 --> 00:25:47.730
being lost in the midst of this familiar thing that

439
00:25:47.789 --> 00:25:50.690
I do, which is cooking, and also this familiar spirit

440
00:25:50.730 --> 00:25:53.309
that is there with me and I know is listening

441
00:25:53.369 --> 00:25:57.789
to me. Begin to have that conversation and start your

442
00:25:57.829 --> 00:26:01.099
devotional practice, even if someone else came to me and said, oh,

443
00:26:01.150 --> 00:26:04.269
I'm also... you know, a devotee or I also am

444
00:26:04.309 --> 00:26:07.190
developing a relationship with Hera, your relationship with Hera may

445
00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:10.970
not look like mine and neither one invalidates the other, right?

446
00:26:11.329 --> 00:26:15.769
Because the relationship is personal. The relationship is your relationship

447
00:26:15.789 --> 00:26:17.660
with her. She may show up for you in a

448
00:26:17.710 --> 00:26:20.819
completely different way than for me because what she is

449
00:26:20.900 --> 00:26:23.559
bringing to me is different than what she is bringing

450
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:28.000
to you because our needs are different. But the most

451
00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:31.440
important thing is being intentional about it and making sure

452
00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:38.259
that you're not falling into that um transactional relationship of

453
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:40.220
hey i talked to you so do this thing for

454
00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:40.779
me now.

455
00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:51.470
So now when it comes to you know we've actually

456
00:26:51.490 --> 00:26:53.490
i've asked this question to quite a few people uh

457
00:26:53.609 --> 00:26:55.829
as we've talked about spiritualism over the last couple months

458
00:26:55.890 --> 00:27:00.470
here um but how do you really distinguish uh communication

459
00:27:00.569 --> 00:27:05.799
from a deity um And your own hopes, fears, intuition,

460
00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:10.289
or even imagination of what you want to hear or believe.

461
00:27:11.630 --> 00:27:17.589
So for me, I have had to, because I have

462
00:27:17.630 --> 00:27:20.450
the training as a clinical social worker, I have had

463
00:27:20.470 --> 00:27:25.569
to use some of my clinical background to do... Socratic

464
00:27:25.630 --> 00:27:29.299
questioning and cognitive restructuring. I think for anyone who does

465
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:32.660
not have that background, the number one question you ask

466
00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:34.779
when you're asking these questions and you feel like you're

467
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:39.680
getting answers is, who does the answer actually serve? Because

468
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:42.859
if you're asking questions of a deity, you're asking questions

469
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:46.160
of a spirit or ancestor, the answer is not going

470
00:27:46.220 --> 00:27:49.190
to always agree with where you are or what you

471
00:27:49.250 --> 00:27:52.849
want to happen. Sometimes the answer is no. Sometimes you

472
00:27:53.029 --> 00:27:58.009
really want to go left. And the answer is go right. Sometimes, oh,

473
00:27:58.130 --> 00:28:00.309
I really, I really like this person. I want to

474
00:28:00.329 --> 00:28:02.289
go on a date. I feel like this is the one.

475
00:28:02.970 --> 00:28:06.490
And you're ignoring every red flag. And the answer you

476
00:28:06.509 --> 00:28:09.230
get is, yeah, still go out with this person. Then

477
00:28:09.269 --> 00:28:13.690
you're probably self-serving and you're creating a self-fulfilling prophecy that

478
00:28:13.730 --> 00:28:15.789
you can then blame on the gods. And a lot

479
00:28:15.809 --> 00:28:18.349
of people do that. Oh, I asked the gods and

480
00:28:18.390 --> 00:28:20.470
they told me yes. And then it didn't work out up.

481
00:28:20.789 --> 00:28:23.150
But was the answer actually from the gods or was

482
00:28:23.190 --> 00:28:26.809
the answer what you were wanting to happen, and you

483
00:28:26.849 --> 00:28:29.490
just wanted to lay the potential blame on someone else.

484
00:28:30.329 --> 00:28:33.910
My relationship with my gods, for instance, every answer I

485
00:28:33.950 --> 00:28:38.700
get from Hera is not always sunshine and rainbows. There

486
00:28:38.740 --> 00:28:40.460
have been plenty of times where she has let me

487
00:28:40.500 --> 00:28:42.579
know she is disappointed in me and how I have

488
00:28:42.619 --> 00:28:47.769
conducted myself, especially when I go into situations, especially before

489
00:28:47.829 --> 00:28:50.859
I got my doctorate, And I would and I was

490
00:28:50.900 --> 00:28:57.309
working almost exclusively in HIV cure prevention and treatment. And

491
00:28:57.329 --> 00:29:00.029
I would go into certain spaces. And because I didn't

492
00:29:00.049 --> 00:29:02.190
have a doctorate from my name and I was dealing

493
00:29:02.210 --> 00:29:05.390
with these epidemiologists and things like that, I would not

494
00:29:05.430 --> 00:29:07.700
speak up on behalf of the community that I was

495
00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:10.039
supposed to represent. And she would let me know, I

496
00:29:10.619 --> 00:29:12.859
didn't send you here and I did not open these

497
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:16.099
doors for you to go into this place and small

498
00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:20.440
yourself because you don't have this degree. And so even

499
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:24.640
before I could do my doctorate, she had to make

500
00:29:24.700 --> 00:29:27.579
sure that I understood that the doctorate meant nothing if

501
00:29:27.619 --> 00:29:31.369
you don't have the confidence. And so that's how I

502
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.170
know this was not me because Casey would have just said,

503
00:29:34.849 --> 00:29:36.589
don't do the doctorate, just sit back and be a

504
00:29:36.630 --> 00:29:39.789
normal social worker and whatever. She was like, no, I don't.

505
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.460
opened this door for a reason and I need you

506
00:29:42.500 --> 00:29:44.059
here for a reason, but you got to use your voice.

507
00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:46.619
And so she continued to put me in situations where

508
00:29:47.779 --> 00:29:50.630
I was leaving feeling guilty because I was like, I

509
00:29:50.670 --> 00:29:54.609
should have said something. And they just enacted this policy

510
00:29:54.630 --> 00:29:56.390
that I know is not going to work for this

511
00:29:56.450 --> 00:29:58.829
community anymore. And I was the one who was supposed

512
00:29:58.849 --> 00:30:00.769
to be there. So it made me begin to use

513
00:30:00.829 --> 00:30:02.690
my voice and then the door for the doctor.

514
00:30:02.910 --> 00:30:04.579
Oh, all right.

515
00:30:04.650 --> 00:30:04.839
Yeah.

516
00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:08.559
You know, it's like, um, by no means the same,

517
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:11.460
but in similar instances, you know, I found myself where

518
00:30:11.539 --> 00:30:16.319
it's also for me, selfishly wanting a certain answer. And,

519
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:20.269
you know, I, I would feel that intuition saying, no, no, no, no.

520
00:30:20.329 --> 00:30:22.009
You know, it's like, that's not going to work. Don't

521
00:30:22.049 --> 00:30:24.210
do this. Don't do that. But then I find a

522
00:30:24.269 --> 00:30:27.599
way to manipulate it in my mind. to think and

523
00:30:27.619 --> 00:30:30.740
believe that, oh, this is what is meant to happen, right?

524
00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:33.440
And it's like, as soon as that happens, it's like

525
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.380
slap right across the face, you know, immediate failure or,

526
00:30:37.500 --> 00:30:40.559
you know, within a quick succession. And it's like, okay,

527
00:30:40.940 --> 00:30:42.400
I need to rethink this, you know? And I think

528
00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:46.160
it's one of those things for people who are really

529
00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:49.720
growing in their spirituality to have to encounter things and

530
00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:53.980
understand before they can accept it and move forward, you know?

531
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:56.119
And I, it's one of those things where I think

532
00:30:56.220 --> 00:30:57.700
just a lot of people want to try to avoid

533
00:30:57.740 --> 00:30:59.809
that whole thing. I don't want to go through the pain.

534
00:30:59.829 --> 00:31:01.589
I don't want to go through the frustration and the stress.

535
00:31:01.630 --> 00:31:04.349
It's like, that's a whole part of growing. That's the

536
00:31:04.410 --> 00:31:06.549
part that you have to do in order to take

537
00:31:06.589 --> 00:31:09.690
that next step forward. And it's like, you know, I'm

538
00:31:09.730 --> 00:31:11.569
at a point now where, so when I make those mistakes,

539
00:31:11.809 --> 00:31:15.150
I say, okay, I'm an idiot. And thank you for

540
00:31:15.289 --> 00:31:18.799
showing me and helping me to, to, to realize that,

541
00:31:19.470 --> 00:31:21.450
That when I have these feelings, I need to accept

542
00:31:21.509 --> 00:31:24.650
them and understand them and trust them.

543
00:31:25.769 --> 00:31:30.710
And it becomes difficult to trust your own intuition in

544
00:31:30.779 --> 00:31:34.670
this day and age. And it's something that my aunt

545
00:31:34.779 --> 00:31:36.859
used to say all the time. As you grow in

546
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:41.839
your spirituality, regardless of the spirituality that you're growing in,

547
00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:46.359
it is literally making a rose go out of concrete.

548
00:31:47.150 --> 00:31:49.230
And in order for that to happen, the concrete has

549
00:31:49.250 --> 00:31:52.630
to be broken. And we don't want that. No one

550
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:56.619
wants to be broken. And we get so fixated on

551
00:31:56.660 --> 00:32:00.480
that temporary pain that we are failing to see the

552
00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:03.430
blessing and the miracle that's happening from it. Because now

553
00:32:04.069 --> 00:32:07.130
you are no longer this thing that is stuck in...

554
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:12.779
the stereotypes in the dogmatic the all of the things

555
00:32:12.819 --> 00:32:14.960
that the world has said you're supposed to be because

556
00:32:15.019 --> 00:32:17.059
you're a male and you're from the south and you're

557
00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:20.200
black and you're whatever whatever whatever the rose from the

558
00:32:20.250 --> 00:32:23.569
concrete is you are now this living wild thing that

559
00:32:23.630 --> 00:32:26.950
gets to adapt that it becomes beautiful but it is

560
00:32:27.029 --> 00:32:32.650
a process and you're right when you begin to have

561
00:32:32.730 --> 00:32:37.619
those moments of your spirituality has grown to the point

562
00:32:37.660 --> 00:32:41.299
that the God or gods or ancestors that you work

563
00:32:41.380 --> 00:32:45.279
with begin to say, hey, no, put your hand back.

564
00:32:45.339 --> 00:32:47.900
I told you that's hot. You know, they'll may let

565
00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:50.480
you burn yourself one time, but then after that, it's like, yeah,

566
00:32:50.500 --> 00:32:52.279
you start to get those hand slaps and you start

567
00:32:52.299 --> 00:32:54.900
to get those pops. Like, no, no one wants to

568
00:32:54.940 --> 00:32:58.619
feel that because again, we think we know best, but

569
00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:01.730
I think about it. And now how I think about

570
00:33:01.789 --> 00:33:06.019
it is, I almost look at the gods that I

571
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:09.769
work with as another form of GPS. I am on

572
00:33:09.809 --> 00:33:13.529
the ground and I am trying to get somewhere. My

573
00:33:13.609 --> 00:33:16.589
gods sit in a place where they see the path

574
00:33:16.730 --> 00:33:22.410
forward and they're not always going to navigate me around barriers.

575
00:33:22.710 --> 00:33:25.190
But what they may do is send me through a

576
00:33:25.269 --> 00:33:30.569
certain pathway to allow me to strengthen myself that when

577
00:33:30.630 --> 00:33:34.369
I get to that barrier, I don't stumble. Right. And

578
00:33:34.470 --> 00:33:36.509
sometimes we get upset because it's like, why would you

579
00:33:36.529 --> 00:33:39.660
send me this way? And I've been working with you.

580
00:33:39.670 --> 00:33:41.430
I've been talking to you. I've been worshiping you, whatever.

581
00:33:41.490 --> 00:33:43.130
And you sent me this way. And it's like, you

582
00:33:43.170 --> 00:33:46.529
don't understand that this was meant to help strengthen you

583
00:33:46.849 --> 00:33:49.990
because there is something that you cannot circumvent. So if

584
00:33:50.029 --> 00:33:53.309
you go through this thing, you will be able to

585
00:33:54.170 --> 00:33:57.079
get over this thing that you cannot circumvent because we're

586
00:33:57.150 --> 00:33:59.519
all going to go through tests and trials. And I

587
00:33:59.579 --> 00:34:02.579
think that for any person working on any kind of

588
00:34:02.619 --> 00:34:06.309
devotional relationship, They have to have that understanding that sometimes

589
00:34:06.349 --> 00:34:09.309
you're being directed a certain way simply because there is

590
00:34:09.389 --> 00:34:12.929
something coming that you don't see. But these gods and

591
00:34:12.969 --> 00:34:16.480
these spirits, these ancestors that you have developed relationship with

592
00:34:16.940 --> 00:34:19.610
know what's coming and they're trying to prepare you for it.

593
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:20.360
Yeah.

594
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:22.519
Same thing that our parents do for us. Our parents

595
00:34:22.539 --> 00:34:24.280
know we're going to go through heartache and things like that.

596
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:26.530
So sometimes they're like, listen, I'm going to let you

597
00:34:26.550 --> 00:34:28.989
skin your knee today because there's going to come a

598
00:34:29.030 --> 00:34:30.690
time where I'm not going to be able to stop

599
00:34:30.730 --> 00:34:31.510
you from falling.

600
00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:31.849
Right.

601
00:34:31.889 --> 00:34:33.829
But let me help you build your strength up now.

602
00:34:33.849 --> 00:34:33.949
Yeah.

603
00:34:34.849 --> 00:34:36.590
It's like, you know, one of those things that I

604
00:34:36.969 --> 00:34:40.380
find a simple way of kind of learning this on

605
00:34:40.389 --> 00:34:45.019
your own, you know, aside from like, you know, taking

606
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:48.159
the big risk and then failing miserably, right? It's simple

607
00:34:48.179 --> 00:34:50.760
things like traffic. Like you get stuck in traffic, you

608
00:34:50.780 --> 00:34:52.679
get frustrated, I'm late to work and this and that,

609
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:54.239
but then you take a moment and you think like,

610
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:57.360
what if this traffic was put here for a reason?

611
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:01.929
What if God placed this here to prevent harm to

612
00:35:02.010 --> 00:35:05.969
me or to someone behind me or, you know, you

613
00:35:05.989 --> 00:35:10.630
start to use these little instances to train your mind like, okay,

614
00:35:11.650 --> 00:35:13.010
this is a roadblock.

615
00:35:13.050 --> 00:35:14.690
This is a problem. It's frustration.

616
00:35:14.949 --> 00:35:19.300
But when you look at the other side, who knows

617
00:35:19.929 --> 00:35:22.400
what would have been different if that traffic was moving steadily.

618
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:26.079
And it's like, it's the little things, little seeds that

619
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.460
plant and build a foundation to help you through this.

620
00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:33.659
But nonetheless, there are those bigger things. bigger incidences where

621
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:36.719
you have to learn them through trial and error.

622
00:35:40.510 --> 00:35:40.949
All right.

623
00:35:41.170 --> 00:35:43.690
I think it's a good point for us to take

624
00:35:43.949 --> 00:35:48.590
our support sponsor break, so we will be back in

625
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just a few seconds.

626
00:35:50.510 --> 00:35:54.199
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627
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come together. Find out more at nordakianstudios.com. All right, folks,

634
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:41.579
welcome back to Paratruth Reborn.

635
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:45.300
We've been talking to Kenneth Freeman II about his book,

636
00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:52.150
Devotional Witchcraft, Honoring the Gods with Magic and Ritual. Now,

637
00:36:52.269 --> 00:36:56.230
something I want to ask, um, just because I'm a

638
00:36:56.250 --> 00:36:59.139
psychic medium, I always have things that I'm always trying

639
00:36:59.179 --> 00:37:03.519
to get answers for, um, but spiritual experience can be

640
00:37:03.659 --> 00:37:08.039
incredibly powerful. And I've gone through that a lot being

641
00:37:08.059 --> 00:37:12.719
a medium. How do you define personal gnosis and what

642
00:37:12.820 --> 00:37:15.400
place should it have in someone's practice?

643
00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:26.559
I think personal gnosis is incredibly important because when we're

644
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:34.989
talking about any deity, any spirit, any entity. Again, these

645
00:37:35.110 --> 00:37:42.130
things are dynamic. How Hera shows up for me, how

646
00:37:42.289 --> 00:37:48.179
Asteria shows up for me may not be exactly how

647
00:37:48.219 --> 00:37:51.539
she shows up for you. But there are threads of

648
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:56.440
commonality within them that we can both realize, hey, that

649
00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:59.519
is Hera. but she's showing up more for me as

650
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:02.179
the sovereign queen and she's showing up more for you

651
00:38:02.619 --> 00:38:06.699
as the goddess of family because that's what's more important

652
00:38:06.739 --> 00:38:09.210
to you. You have family or you want a family

653
00:38:09.269 --> 00:38:15.130
and I'm more concerned about personal sovereignty. I do think

654
00:38:15.309 --> 00:38:21.380
that one of the problems of personal gnosis is when

655
00:38:21.590 --> 00:38:29.369
people try to take personal gnosis and want other people

656
00:38:29.429 --> 00:38:31.829
to believe that their gnosis is the only gnosis. This

657
00:38:31.849 --> 00:38:33.889
is the only way you can approach this deity. This

658
00:38:33.949 --> 00:38:35.929
is the only way that he or she will show

659
00:38:36.050 --> 00:38:39.309
up for you. And if you didn't have this experience,

660
00:38:39.389 --> 00:38:43.449
that's not who you dealt with. That is very dangerous

661
00:38:44.659 --> 00:38:48.900
because for me, again, I am a clinical social worker.

662
00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:54.179
I am a social clinical researcher. I am an adjunct professor.

663
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:58.949
I am a Capricorn. Depending on where you met me,

664
00:38:59.789 --> 00:39:03.809
if my students describe me to my parents, and this

665
00:39:03.829 --> 00:39:07.110
has happened before because I ran into students with my parents,

666
00:39:07.590 --> 00:39:08.690
and my students will say.

667
00:39:09.090 --> 00:39:09.909
Oh, I love Dr.

668
00:39:09.929 --> 00:39:10.329
Freeman.

669
00:39:10.369 --> 00:39:12.869
He's so funny. And my mom and dad are like,

670
00:39:12.929 --> 00:39:13.809
who are you talking about?

671
00:39:16.809 --> 00:39:17.449
Not my child.

672
00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:19.400
And I'm like, yeah, how I show up as a

673
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:22.420
professor is not how I show up as your child. Right.

674
00:39:23.030 --> 00:39:26.079
Same thing, how I show up as a therapist is

675
00:39:26.139 --> 00:39:29.090
not how I show up as a professor because each

676
00:39:29.150 --> 00:39:32.929
situation calls for a different side of me, a different

677
00:39:32.989 --> 00:39:36.519
facet of me in order to properly do what I

678
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:41.480
need to be done. And so I can't say that, oh,

679
00:39:41.559 --> 00:39:43.360
you met this person, you met this side of me,

680
00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:44.980
you don't know the real me. No, you know a

681
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:48.599
version of me. And all of these versions converge into

682
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:52.510
this one person. It is the same thing with gnosis.

683
00:39:54.059 --> 00:39:59.139
I think that sometimes people forget that mythology myths are

684
00:39:59.219 --> 00:40:03.570
not law, right? This is the way that, especially within

685
00:40:03.610 --> 00:40:09.550
the ancient world, this is the way that people attempted

686
00:40:09.590 --> 00:40:12.909
to explain the natural world. It does not mean that

687
00:40:13.050 --> 00:40:18.210
these were actual, you know, verified encounters with the gods.

688
00:40:18.289 --> 00:40:20.110
It does not mean that these are the only ways

689
00:40:20.130 --> 00:40:22.369
that they show up. It means that at that time,

690
00:40:22.489 --> 00:40:25.309
with the understanding of the world that they had, this

691
00:40:25.409 --> 00:40:30.969
is how individuals experienced the gods. We are now moved

692
00:40:31.070 --> 00:40:35.590
past that. You know, for instance, there was no internet.

693
00:40:35.670 --> 00:40:37.849
There were no cars and things like that in ancient

694
00:40:38.989 --> 00:40:41.880
Does that mean that Hephaestus has no place in the

695
00:40:41.909 --> 00:40:42.559
modern world?

696
00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:43.059
No.

697
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:46.099
But how he shows up now may be very different

698
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:49.199
than how he showed up then. And so I think

699
00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:53.159
that personal gnosis is very important. But again, you also

700
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:54.960
have to make sure that you are not trying to

701
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:57.539
make the gods fit into the box that you want

702
00:40:57.579 --> 00:41:00.199
them to fit into, but allowing them to show up

703
00:41:00.300 --> 00:41:03.039
how they want to show up in your life.

704
00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:07.050
So have the gods kind of.

705
00:41:08.539 --> 00:41:12.579
Adjusted to humans like.

706
00:41:12.380 --> 00:41:14.739
Like how they appear to us or how they help

707
00:41:15.619 --> 00:41:19.599
um i guess the question i'm asking have they evolved

708
00:41:19.739 --> 00:41:23.719
like we have from the times when they were originally worshipped.

709
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:26.960
Till today i think so because they're dynamic i think

710
00:41:26.980 --> 00:41:31.460
that as our world has expanded and how we understand

711
00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:33.699
and how we operate and how we perceive the world

712
00:41:33.739 --> 00:41:37.269
and also how we perceive The spiritual world, I think

713
00:41:37.329 --> 00:41:40.809
that not necessarily that the gods have changed. They are

714
00:41:40.969 --> 00:41:44.059
able to show more of themselves because we have a

715
00:41:44.139 --> 00:41:48.199
greater understanding of the world. The advances of science and

716
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:51.199
medicine and things like that have not negated the spiritual world.

717
00:41:51.260 --> 00:41:53.960
And I hate that people sometimes think that. I think

718
00:41:54.019 --> 00:41:58.800
that it has allowed us to understand spirit better. because

719
00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:03.449
we now have a better understanding of our world. And

720
00:42:03.769 --> 00:42:06.469
I think that with that, the gods are able to

721
00:42:06.889 --> 00:42:13.809
show up and be present in a different way that maybe,

722
00:42:13.849 --> 00:42:17.320
you know, if somehow, some way we had a time

723
00:42:17.340 --> 00:42:20.199
machine and we were able to pluck somebody from antiquity,

724
00:42:21.030 --> 00:42:23.849
they might not even recognize how we interact with the

725
00:42:23.889 --> 00:42:27.159
gods because they don't have our understanding and perception of

726
00:42:27.219 --> 00:42:29.099
the world, nor our lived experience.

727
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:29.940
That's right.

728
00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:36.429
So now, one thing that I always think about, and

729
00:42:36.469 --> 00:42:39.389
I get this from scriptures specifically, or the Holy Bible,

730
00:42:39.570 --> 00:42:42.769
and it is the idea of testing spirits, and even

731
00:42:42.789 --> 00:42:46.230
God himself saying to test him when we're unsure. At

732
00:42:47.369 --> 00:42:51.679
what point should someone question a spiritual message that they've

733
00:42:51.699 --> 00:42:56.800
received instead of automatically accepting it as divine communication? And

734
00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:59.940
are there ways to actually test that, I guess, safely?

735
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:01.460
Yes.

736
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:03.719
First of all, I think you should always test messages

737
00:43:03.929 --> 00:43:08.010
from spirit. I think regardless of the relationship you have,

738
00:43:08.070 --> 00:43:11.269
I think you should always test the message of spirit

739
00:43:11.309 --> 00:43:15.230
because there's so much lost in translation where we're going

740
00:43:15.269 --> 00:43:19.320
from spirit to the mundane. And there's also our personal

741
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:24.239
desires that can also kind of discombobulate messages. So I

742
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:26.980
think we should always test that. I also come from that.

743
00:43:27.059 --> 00:43:29.119
I always say that know the spirit by the spirit.

744
00:43:29.179 --> 00:43:34.969
And so I'm always testing what I'm getting and where

745
00:43:35.030 --> 00:43:38.429
it's coming from. So I think it's very important to

746
00:43:38.489 --> 00:43:43.150
do that. And part of that, when you test it,

747
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:46.860
I will say that's kind of how you know where

748
00:43:46.909 --> 00:43:52.429
it's coming from, because a deity, an ancestor, a spirit

749
00:43:52.789 --> 00:43:55.969
that is sending you messages will not be, and they

750
00:43:56.030 --> 00:43:58.969
have your best interest. You have developed a relationship. They're

751
00:43:59.010 --> 00:44:01.590
trying to let you know something. They are not going

752
00:44:01.650 --> 00:44:07.349
to be offended by you testing it, by you, whether that,

753
00:44:07.409 --> 00:44:10.329
you know, if you, whatever your medium is, you know,

754
00:44:10.369 --> 00:44:14.210
you pull tarot cards, you do, you know, what I do,

755
00:44:14.250 --> 00:44:17.809
Socratic questioning and things like that. they're not going to

756
00:44:17.829 --> 00:44:21.030
be offended by that. They're going to be, OK, yes, good.

757
00:44:22.409 --> 00:44:26.980
Test it, make sure. And then again, try to understand

758
00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:30.179
who does it serve. I think that when you get

759
00:44:30.219 --> 00:44:33.760
a message that is like completely incongruent with who you are,

760
00:44:33.860 --> 00:44:38.659
it is definitely important to question it. If it is

761
00:44:38.739 --> 00:44:43.320
completely opposite, that does not necessarily mean it's wrong because

762
00:44:43.380 --> 00:44:46.000
sometimes you do need to go left. Sometimes you do

763
00:44:46.039 --> 00:44:49.590
need to go in a direction you've never been before. However,

764
00:44:49.610 --> 00:44:53.269
if I got a message that told me to do

765
00:44:53.309 --> 00:44:55.809
something that is completely incongruent with who I am as

766
00:44:55.849 --> 00:44:58.389
a social worker and unethical to who I am as

767
00:44:58.409 --> 00:45:01.449
a social worker, I would be testing that thing for

768
00:45:01.489 --> 00:45:04.500
a while because I'm like, this ain't me. And not

769
00:45:04.539 --> 00:45:07.969
only that, it has repercussions that My gods know I've

770
00:45:08.010 --> 00:45:10.869
worked very hard for my reputation as a social worker.

771
00:45:11.150 --> 00:45:13.869
So why would they ask me to do something or

772
00:45:13.989 --> 00:45:17.269
send me down this path that has the potential to

773
00:45:17.489 --> 00:45:19.750
destroy what I have worked so hard for, what they

774
00:45:19.789 --> 00:45:23.329
have helped me to also build on this pathway? So

775
00:45:23.349 --> 00:45:27.980
when you get those messages that are completely opposite, those

776
00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:30.460
are the times that you really should question, but also

777
00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:34.940
understand that discomfort does not mean it's wrong because sometimes

778
00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:37.559
you do have to be taken to a place of

779
00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:41.429
discomfort for growth. Um, but I definitely think it is

780
00:45:41.510 --> 00:45:46.530
important to question, not take for granted because there are

781
00:45:46.590 --> 00:45:50.389
malevolent spirits out there. There are things that don't necessarily

782
00:45:50.429 --> 00:45:53.539
have your best interests at heart. Um, that if you

783
00:45:53.619 --> 00:45:56.119
are too open and you're too trusting, you can be

784
00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:58.480
led somewhere that you don't want to be.

785
00:46:01.300 --> 00:46:02.860
I thank you for sharing that. Cause that, you know,

786
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:05.960
that's something that I, I, uh, we both find just

787
00:46:06.019 --> 00:46:09.400
and i find a lot of um people who've who've

788
00:46:09.460 --> 00:46:13.690
come on here and said like they always know who

789
00:46:13.730 --> 00:46:16.469
they're talking to they can't be manipulated they can't but

790
00:46:16.489 --> 00:46:18.710
they don't ask questions they just you know and it's

791
00:46:18.769 --> 00:46:22.170
very and it's something that justin and i always we

792
00:46:22.190 --> 00:46:24.809
don't argue per se but it's something that we definitely

793
00:46:24.829 --> 00:46:28.360
tell our our listeners like you you have to you

794
00:46:28.380 --> 00:46:29.559
have to take that with a grain of salt that

795
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:31.019
doesn't mean that we should just be going out there

796
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:34.070
but like oh, willy-nilly, right? And like talking to anything

797
00:46:34.090 --> 00:46:37.190
and everything and accepting it. Like you have to be careful.

798
00:46:37.789 --> 00:46:42.719
Like despite what other people do, you should really recognize

799
00:46:42.739 --> 00:46:44.559
and take the time to try to recognize what it

800
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:46.940
is you're talking to because those doors, I mean, and

801
00:46:46.980 --> 00:46:52.000
those entities, those spirits that are benevolent, you know, they're

802
00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:56.590
very good at hiding those secrets, those things that they're

803
00:46:56.639 --> 00:46:59.190
trying to keep from you, those things they're trying to

804
00:46:59.289 --> 00:47:02.170
lead you into. Uh, and you would, they come off

805
00:47:02.210 --> 00:47:05.329
as being very good spirits at times until it's too late.

806
00:47:06.210 --> 00:47:08.090
And I always get a little chuckle when people say,

807
00:47:08.309 --> 00:47:10.099
oh yeah, no, it's, there's no such thing there.

808
00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:11.880
I'm always fine. It's no big deal.

809
00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:13.739
You know, I had this block, that block, this and that.

810
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:17.679
It's like at some point, I think there's a sense

811
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:22.210
of overconfidence and that's, that's troubling. It's discerning to me.

812
00:47:23.550 --> 00:47:24.070
Yeah.

813
00:47:24.510 --> 00:47:27.389
Discernment, whether you're in the church or whether you're in

814
00:47:27.550 --> 00:47:32.469
a polytheistic paganism past, discernment is very important. My grandmother

815
00:47:32.510 --> 00:47:34.250
taught me that a long time ago. She used to

816
00:47:34.289 --> 00:47:36.170
say to me all the time because there are people

817
00:47:36.210 --> 00:47:37.949
in the church would say the same thing. OK, no

818
00:47:37.989 --> 00:47:41.079
demon influenced me. And my grandmother used to say those

819
00:47:41.099 --> 00:47:43.559
are the very ones who will be the easiest to influence.

820
00:47:43.619 --> 00:47:46.039
Because when you are dead set on knowing that you

821
00:47:46.179 --> 00:47:49.679
know something, it is very easy for someone to emulate

822
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:52.610
what you think you know. And the same thing can

823
00:47:52.650 --> 00:47:56.429
be said of spirits and entities that don't have your

824
00:47:56.489 --> 00:47:59.349
best interests at heart. When you become overconfident and, oh,

825
00:47:59.389 --> 00:48:01.570
I got this shield set up and I'm good at this.

826
00:48:01.650 --> 00:48:04.130
And I know I know the voice of my gods.

827
00:48:04.170 --> 00:48:07.300
Then if someone comes in or something comes in sounding

828
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:10.860
like your God, you just automatically trust it because, oh, no,

829
00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:16.400
nothing evil could or nothing malevolent could happen. ever get

830
00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:19.800
past my wards or could ever trick me, then you

831
00:48:19.860 --> 00:48:25.670
set yourself up for failure. And oftentimes, just like within

832
00:48:25.730 --> 00:48:28.989
the church, your gods will allow you to be tested

833
00:48:29.030 --> 00:48:33.489
to see if you're going to question it. And then

834
00:48:33.530 --> 00:48:36.849
when you find yourself in the quicksand, it's like, wait,

835
00:48:36.989 --> 00:48:38.550
how did I get led here? And it's like, well,

836
00:48:38.590 --> 00:48:41.139
you didn't even ask. You didn't even test. You didn't

837
00:48:41.179 --> 00:48:44.980
even verify if this was actually me. You just automatically

838
00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:48.239
believe because you are overconfident. I don't think you can

839
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:52.639
ever be overconfident when we're talking about dealing with spirit

840
00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:56.670
and dealing in the spiritual, because again, we don't know everything.

841
00:48:57.409 --> 00:49:00.929
We can't interpret everything from spirit. So you have to

842
00:49:00.989 --> 00:49:06.820
make sure that you are always checking and checking behind

843
00:49:06.860 --> 00:49:10.079
yourself and making sure that you are on the right

844
00:49:10.139 --> 00:49:13.730
path and you are talking to the right entities and

845
00:49:13.789 --> 00:49:17.869
deities because you can be led to places and I've

846
00:49:17.989 --> 00:49:23.639
known people who have um worked with what they thought

847
00:49:23.699 --> 00:49:27.840
were particular deities and then for lack of a better

848
00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:31.340
word all hell broke loose in that yeah and it's

849
00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:34.579
like well who were you working with it's like no

850
00:49:34.619 --> 00:49:36.599
i don't think so and i think you need to

851
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:39.300
do some cleansing i think you need to Do some

852
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:42.019
things because I believe you have allowed something into your

853
00:49:42.059 --> 00:49:44.510
life that is there simply to add chaos.

854
00:49:44.730 --> 00:49:45.030
Right.

855
00:49:47.170 --> 00:49:47.789
Absolutely.

856
00:49:49.030 --> 00:49:51.630
So here's a question for you, and maybe maybe it's

857
00:49:51.670 --> 00:49:57.920
a loaded one. After everything you've experienced, you've researched, you've practiced.

858
00:49:58.840 --> 00:50:05.099
In your opinion, what do the gods ultimately want from humanity?

859
00:50:07.409 --> 00:50:10.869
Oh, it might be alluded.

860
00:50:11.809 --> 00:50:12.730
That is a question.

861
00:50:13.429 --> 00:50:17.750
Honestly, I think in my experience and in working with

862
00:50:17.869 --> 00:50:26.670
my gods, number one, and it's interesting because this also

863
00:50:26.730 --> 00:50:29.750
comes from the Bible. I really do think that the

864
00:50:29.809 --> 00:50:32.659
gods want the best for us. And in the Bible,

865
00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:35.099
you know, it says that God has been expected in

866
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:38.170
and he wants us. What is best for you at

867
00:50:38.210 --> 00:50:40.949
the end of that? I think it is the same

868
00:50:41.050 --> 00:50:44.909
thing with, you know, for lack of a better term,

869
00:50:44.969 --> 00:50:48.159
pagan gods. I don't think that there is anything that

870
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:51.980
they are needing from us per se, right? There's, you know,

871
00:50:52.059 --> 00:50:53.699
some people have the belief like, oh, you have to

872
00:50:53.739 --> 00:50:56.119
believe they need our prayers. They need our worship. I

873
00:50:56.139 --> 00:51:00.420
don't believe that at all because they exist on a different,

874
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:03.159
you know, in a different plane. But I do believe

875
00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:05.860
that they want the best for humanity. And the best

876
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:09.820
for the people that they have relationship with. But that

877
00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:13.360
also means understanding that that is a process of growth

878
00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:16.119
and growth. It's not always easy. It's not always fun.

879
00:51:17.139 --> 00:51:17.619
It's not.

880
00:51:17.980 --> 00:51:23.150
Sometimes it does involve pain. It does involve grief. I

881
00:51:23.210 --> 00:51:28.190
believe that they are wanting a greater integration of our

882
00:51:28.289 --> 00:51:34.280
human experience with our spiritual selves. Because that only increases

883
00:51:34.579 --> 00:51:37.119
our empathy, not only for each other, but for the

884
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:41.139
natural world and leads to greater peace and greater understanding

885
00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:49.730
amongst one another. I think that ultimately the gods are

886
00:51:49.769 --> 00:51:54.269
like parents. They want to see us succeed. They want

887
00:51:54.309 --> 00:51:57.449
to see us succeed on our own. They want to

888
00:51:57.510 --> 00:52:01.309
help us where they can, but they don't. don't want

889
00:52:01.329 --> 00:52:03.849
to hold our hands the whole time. They want to

890
00:52:03.909 --> 00:52:06.869
see us go from crawling to walking to running to

891
00:52:06.929 --> 00:52:10.380
leaping to flying. And they want to help us down

892
00:52:10.409 --> 00:52:12.969
that path where they can. They want to give a

893
00:52:13.010 --> 00:52:15.550
little bit of correction. They want to give some direction

894
00:52:15.590 --> 00:52:18.539
so that we can avoid some of the pitfalls and

895
00:52:18.579 --> 00:52:20.719
that we can strengthen ourselves for the things that we

896
00:52:20.780 --> 00:52:26.000
cannot avoid. And they want to see us be better

897
00:52:26.619 --> 00:52:30.360
as a species to one another and to this world.

898
00:52:31.429 --> 00:52:34.469
I really believe, and that is the messages that I

899
00:52:34.510 --> 00:52:38.760
have gotten so often, is just be better and do better. Yeah.

900
00:52:40.360 --> 00:52:42.519
Well, now last question for the night, because we are

901
00:52:42.559 --> 00:52:44.360
kind of getting very close to the end of the

902
00:52:44.380 --> 00:52:48.800
show here. Really just, where can everybody find you? Where

903
00:52:48.820 --> 00:52:51.800
can they find your work? And then please share anything

904
00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:52.960
else that you'd like to share.

905
00:52:53.179 --> 00:52:53.659
Mike's all yours.

906
00:52:54.820 --> 00:52:55.219
Sure.

907
00:52:57.019 --> 00:53:01.280
So, of course, I have my book that was just released. Uh,

908
00:53:01.300 --> 00:53:03.179
but fortunately, I guess it's like on back order on

909
00:53:03.260 --> 00:53:04.960
Amazon or something. So I was told it would be

910
00:53:05.019 --> 00:53:08.820
probably even here, um, to get it through like, um,

911
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:11.019
bars and nobles or something. But I also know Llewellyn

912
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:13.880
has it. It's, you know, in a few stores. Um,

913
00:53:13.980 --> 00:53:18.840
you find me on Facebook and Instagram as the devotional witch. Um,

914
00:53:18.860 --> 00:53:22.369
I also have a small website, the devotional witch.com. I'm

915
00:53:22.409 --> 00:53:26.869
also one third of a podcast called roots and realms, um,

916
00:53:26.989 --> 00:53:31.730
where we talk about the experiences of, um, black indigenous

917
00:53:32.869 --> 00:53:39.690
BIPOC men within occult spaces. And I do have some,

918
00:53:40.309 --> 00:53:42.610
outside of my book, I have published works as far

919
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:49.699
as the integration of spirituality into social work, pedagogy, and education.

920
00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:56.400
So my actual doctoral dissertation was on the parallels between

921
00:53:56.460 --> 00:53:59.570
the National Association of Social Work Code of Ethics and

922
00:53:59.590 --> 00:54:03.150
the Wiccan Read. And so that is also a passion

923
00:54:03.190 --> 00:54:07.929
project of mine is how do we better integrate spirituality

924
00:54:08.070 --> 00:54:11.730
into social work, education, and practice to make us better

925
00:54:11.769 --> 00:54:15.429
social workers and create better interventions for people in communities.

926
00:54:16.309 --> 00:54:20.699
And right now that's it. I'm working on, well, I

927
00:54:20.760 --> 00:54:24.300
submitted to Llewellyn my manuscript for my, not my manuscript,

928
00:54:24.340 --> 00:54:26.980
a proposal for a second book that I'm really excited

929
00:54:27.019 --> 00:54:34.079
about that, It's specific to understanding more about, again, that pre-Hellenic,

930
00:54:34.260 --> 00:54:38.840
pre-Homeric Hera and a lot of information out there about

931
00:54:38.900 --> 00:54:43.119
who she was and how she was viewed. That is

932
00:54:43.219 --> 00:54:46.949
not the jealous, jaded goddess that I really would love

933
00:54:47.030 --> 00:54:51.210
to put out there as kind of an act of

934
00:54:51.269 --> 00:54:52.269
devotion for her.

935
00:54:53.590 --> 00:54:56.289
That sounds awesome. And if that does come into fruition,

936
00:54:56.710 --> 00:54:59.610
definitely keep us in mind because we'd love to have

937
00:54:59.630 --> 00:55:02.500
you back on. And we'll keep a lookout for it, too,

938
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:05.079
and try to keep track. You know, we work with

939
00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:08.320
Luan a lot. So it's one way or another it's

940
00:55:08.340 --> 00:55:10.769
going to cross our radar. But definitely wish you the

941
00:55:10.789 --> 00:55:12.530
best of luck in that and all.

942
00:55:12.429 --> 00:55:13.409
The prayers toward it, too.

943
00:55:13.429 --> 00:55:16.880
Thank you. Yeah.

944
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:20.699
So anyway, this is the end here. So Casey, thank

945
00:55:20.719 --> 00:55:23.539
you so much for joining us. For those of you

946
00:55:23.559 --> 00:55:27.699
who are listening, just a reminder, we do have post episode.

947
00:55:28.219 --> 00:55:28.500
Sorry.

948
00:55:28.739 --> 00:55:28.980
Yes.

949
00:55:29.059 --> 00:55:29.500
No, that's right.

950
00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:34.280
Post episode shows. Guys, it's been a long day in

951
00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:37.650
which we will be talking to Casey. And of course,

952
00:55:37.690 --> 00:55:40.670
we've talked to other guests in the past. But Casey,

953
00:55:40.690 --> 00:55:45.639
thank you again so much for joining us. All right, folks,

954
00:55:45.900 --> 00:55:49.000
that is it for this week. We hope you've enjoyed it. Um,

955
00:55:49.340 --> 00:55:55.340
once again, devotional witchcraft. I can't remember the tagline honoring

956
00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:59.360
the gods without with magic and ritual. Um, we've got

957
00:55:59.380 --> 00:56:02.179
a lot of great stuff coming up for you the

958
00:56:02.199 --> 00:56:06.039
coming weeks. Uh, I believe next week will be a

959
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:11.030
only Eric and I episode cause our guests came up sick.

960
00:56:11.130 --> 00:56:13.989
So we wish him the best and full of that.

961
00:56:14.050 --> 00:56:14.570
It's healthy.

962
00:56:15.489 --> 00:56:18.489
Um, until next week, folks, where you will find us

963
00:56:18.900 --> 00:56:20.760
same time, same channel.

964
00:56:21.019 --> 00:56:23.500
My name is Justin. And I'm Eric. Peace.