May 25, 2025

Evil Archaeology w/Dr. Heather Lynn

Evil Archaeology w/Dr. Heather Lynn
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In this chilling encore episode, Justin & Erik dig back into one of our most unforgettable interviews: Dr. Heather Lynn, renegade archaeologist and author of Evil Archaeology. Join us as we explore the dark side of ancient history—ritual sacrifices, cursed relics, demonic artifacts, and the sinister secrets buried beneath the ruins of time. Dr. Lynn takes us beyond mainstream narratives to uncover disturbing truths that challenge everything we think we know about the past. If you missed it the first time, now’s your chance to experience the dark side of discovery.

Bio:
Dr. Heather Lynn is a historian and researcher of ancient intelligence systems, exploring the intersection of hidden history, consciousness, and emerging technologies. With academic training in archaeology, history, information technology, and transformation, she investigates the suppressed knowledge of past civilizations not as myth, but as encoded systems pointing toward humanity’s potential future.Her work explores how ancient cultures encoded transformational knowledge into ritual, myth, architecture, and cosmology; systems that modern science is only beginning to recognize. With academic training in archaeology, history, information technology, and transformational education, Dr. Lynn brings a unique interdisciplinary perspective to the study of hidden history and metaphysical traditions.Dr. Lynn is the author of The Anunnaki Connection, Evil Archaeology, and Baphomet Revealed, among other works. Her public presence includes appearances on Ancient Aliens (History Channel), Coast to Coast AM, and numerous documentaries and podcasts. Through her platforms, The Midnight Academy and The Midnight Path™, she offers both intellectual inquiry and spiritual insight for seekers and visionaries.

Link for the book: https://a.co/d/62zGscs

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/paratruth-reborn--6273542/support.

Thanks for listening!

WEBVTT

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Welcome, Well, go well do para Truth.

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What's going on? Paratruthers. Welcome to another episode of Paratruth Reborn.

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My name is Justin and today we're playing a replay

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of our episode from Paratruth Radio entitled Evil Archaeology. This

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is a peer recorded show on one of seven point

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seven FM New Orleans and United Public Radio Network. We're

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gonna go to the show and we hope you enjoy.

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Today we have a very special guest. Her name is

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doctor Heather Lynn. She is a historian, a renegade archaeologist,

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and defender of classical education. A professor of humanities by

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day and ardent truth seeker by night, Heather is on

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a mission to uncover and share the lost wisdom of antiquity,

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challenging the accepted narrative found in our history books. Author

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of multiple books and articles on fringe topics ranging from

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history to philosophy, Heather's research includes hidden history, ancient mysteries, mythology,

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be account, symbolism, paleo contact, and consciousness.

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And without further ado, we're going to go to the

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line with doctor Heather Lynn.

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Doctor Heather Lyn, Welcome to Paratruth Radio. How are you

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this evening.

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I'm well, thank you so much for having me.

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Thank you for joining us. We've been excited to talk

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to you. So I think I wrote that I really

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just want to get an idea here of what it

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was that really had you decide on evil archaeology for

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a book. You know, what was it that took you

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on this journey and made you think, oh, this is

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gonna be a great book for people.

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Uh?

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And really, what kind of reader is this book geared toward?

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Well, I guess my inspiration. I would like to say

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that it was something, you know, a little deeper than

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what it actually was. My inspiration was the movie The Exerci.

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In the beginning scene from the book and movie, Uh,

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there's a scene from an archaeological excavation in Iraq and

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at the site, a priest archaeologist feels this strong wind

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blowing and it's foreshadowing the arrival of the demon Pazuzu

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of Mesopotamia. And the demon statue featured on the cover

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of the book is actually, uh, the Pazuzu, which is

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the demon that possessed the character in the movie. And

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you know it's I was brought up Catholic and I

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was not really supposed to be watch that movie at

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any point in time. And you know, I did see it,

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and it just it was there in my reference, and

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you know, life goes on, and I hadn't seen it

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for a while, and as an adult, I saw it

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and I picked up on that beginning sequence that I

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hadn't connected before, you know, because of my line of work.

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I found it a little interesting and I started to

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then ponder the relationship between demons of ancient Mesopotamia and

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the modern era. And I wondered if demons of the

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ancient world could still be with us today. It was

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sort of a you know, a passing thought. But it

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wasn't long after seeing the movie then that I read

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a news story about a man in North Carolina who

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changed his name to Puzuzu so that he could honor

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that particular demon. And he went on, you know, he

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was actually discussed because he was a murderer and he

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cannibalized his neighbors, and he was involved in these horrific

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crimes that he believed he was taking part in as

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a way to worship. And you know, while these Mesopotamian

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demons and this sort of thing, and I thought, so

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that's just you know, weird and interesting. And it was

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interesting timing, of course, since it was fresh on my mind.

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And I started thinking about that, and I thought, you know,

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clearly this individual is responsible for his own actions, but

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he claimed to be inspired by these demons to do

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these things. And I considered the Latin for inspiration, you know,

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the inspirare meaning to breathe or blow into, and how

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it was originally used to describe when a supernatural being

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imparted an idea onto someone. And so I thought about

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this question of possession, and I wondered, well, what is

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possession but an evil spiritual entity inhabiting a willing person

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and encouraging them to do evil things. And so I

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started toying with the idea, well, what is this fine

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line between something like inspiration something that would be possession?

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And I wondered about, how do we view these sorts

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of activities now, and how did the ancients view this,

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because there have always been, you know, people who've done

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these horfect things and crimes and the idea of evil,

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and I just started wondering about that. So I don't

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know that I had a particular demographic in mind when

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I wrote the book I just most of the time

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what I do when I write is just follow my

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own questions and ponderings and interests, and hopefully what I

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do is I present something that other people may find

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as interesting as I do. I work on it as

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a as a journey of exploration, and I try in

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my work to present it as such. So I don't

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easily have a either an agenda or a point that

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I want to get across, you know. I just I

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look at things with the questions, and then I also

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know where my expertise lie and where they don't. So

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with that that I listened to help for the input

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in some ways of people that might be you know

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better well burst in things like forism. So, for instance,

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I interviewed Bill Bean, an exorcist, on his views on

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this sort of thing, you know. So I looked at

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it as more of an exploration into the origin of

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evil and the connection between how that was shaped in

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the past and involved and how it may be at

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played today.

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Okay, all right, well here's a question for you. A

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lot of serial killers have used symbols, for example, not

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necessarily for power per se, but for the symbolism itself,

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like the pentagram. You know, Charlie manson The Nightstalker, several

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others have used the symbolism zodiac used symbols as well

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a lot of times that we you know, we talk

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about demonic possession here on Paratruth, but we also talk

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about out how maybe us as humans giving these particular

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things power over spiritual entities, actually doing these things can

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can have the same effect. What are your thoughts on that?

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I think so, I think that that is, you know,

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probably one of the things that I explored in the book,

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in the research was the idea between the tangible actual

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reality of something like a demon versus what we put

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onto things, so such as like amulets or symbols, you know.

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I tried to use an approach sometimes refer to as

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cognitive archaeology, so that I could look at the meanings,

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concept characteristics, and symbols and description of things to you know,

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not just look at assigning blame or you know, but

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trying to have a more complex or nuanced look at

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these matters, but also at the same time not ruling

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out the question of, you know, the spiritual components. Could

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there actually be something more to this and is it

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something that when we're looking at symbols and as the

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result language the concept of linguistics. Are we just limiting

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ourselves by the language we're using, or is it actually

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enhancing or is it completely complicating matters? And so in

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some ways it's like you could look at these issues

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and think, well, we're using these different terms to describe

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this maybe demon or you know, an entity or you know, well,

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at the same time, the ancients might have been using

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that particular term to describe an illness, and so it

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may sound like splitting hairs, but it in some ways

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it would seem like when you take Okham's razor and

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you just maybe look a little more closely and take

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some of that symbolism out, or you know, some of

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the maybe ornamental value of it, it becomes a little

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more like we're all talking about the same thing, and

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we've all and when I say all, I mean through

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different cultures, even religions, on a different time period, that

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we are sharing this experience and whatever it may be,

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whether it's the way someone's behaving differently or horrific acts

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that we can't understand that defy our comfort level of

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what we may feel is the natural order, however you

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want to frame it, there's something there that across languages

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and experiences and beliefs that we just know, and we

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as people develop ways to describe these things, and we

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can call them demons, evil entities, some call them just

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angels in general, or spirits or you know, there's so

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many different ways to look at it. Gin or even

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if they're not ablepomorphized, they could just be a symbol

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of an animal or as you said, a pentagram or

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something actually tangible. Either way, I think that there is

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a very simple, not not easy, but simple threads that

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can be kind of seen holding everything together. I think

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that we're all on the same page about something and

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the language is what it is that maybe we need

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to you know, look more deeply into. So that's kind

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of what I found with symbols, because symbols are you know,

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a form of language as well. How much power do

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we give those symbols And that's another question that considers,

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you know, words have a lot of meaning as do

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you know, amular for these sorts of things, even if

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it's just how we feel about them, those feelings can

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turn into action that have very real physical consequences, you know,

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So that leaves us with a lot of different questions

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and things. So you know, people can talk all day

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about how many angels can fit on the you know,

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tip of a needle or or what have you. But

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these are very real questions that have practical, you know,

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consequences that, oh, is something evil, what is evil? Does

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this match my religion or morality, et cetera eta. At

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the end of the day, while those are very important

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theological discussions, we know evil when we see it, and

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you know, we have to sort of have these symbols,

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have these these terms so that we can function in

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the society as well. And that's what what I believe

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has happened since the beginning. Is if you look at

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the ancient Mesopotamian you know, demonology a lot of primitive medicine,

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and so while they had all of these different names

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for demons, they had a lot of symptoms for the

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possessions and they were really diseases. But at the same

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time they for anthropomorphized the disease. And for example, if

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you had cancer, they you need to have these symptoms,

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and instead of calling it cancer, they might have named

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it after Lamastu, you know, one of the demons. So yes,

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the anthropomorphise but you know, what is that ors something there?

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And I think you know, it's it's served a practical

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purpose because it's gotten us in, you know, so far

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in development to where we are today that they actually

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laid the groundwork for modern medicine. And so, you know,

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symbols are very important, and whether or not they can

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by themselves have some sort of independent, imbued power, you know,

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it's hard to really say. I don't think I'm qualified

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answer that, but I will say that the what people

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put onto them, the meanings that they put onto that

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a very real and tangible consequences, and so it's very

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important to even consider it things.

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So with that said, like considering, we talk a lot

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about how there are various ways that people can accidentally

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open doors to the spiritual realm. And so with your

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conversations with like the Exorcists and the interviews, did you

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find anything maybe they said anything regarding whether or not

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superstition really plays into many of the demonic possessions that

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they actually take call to or is it, I mean.

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Well not necessarily. Yeah, that's something interesting because the idea

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of superstition, you know that that's a really interesting concept

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in and of itself, because it's easy to dismiss something

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of the superstition. But at the same time, where where

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did we Where did we come up with these ideas.

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It's almost like a maybe genetic memory or some sort

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of folk knowledge that tells the hmm, let's put on

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the brakes before we start doing these things. And so

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you know. But in terms of you know, my discussions

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with various exorcists, the idea of gabbling, that's a very

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popular idea. Nobody that I spoke to when researching this

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book at all said that dabbling would be a good idea,

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and that includes psychologists. So if you're looking at it

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from the perspective of a religious point of view even

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versus just maybe a more secular and psychological point of view,

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00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:10.799
something with regard to to perstition or something like that.

224
00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:17.200
Either way, if you are concerned about letting some sort

225
00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:22.039
of negativity in, that idea of dabbling is just really

226
00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:26.080
not recommended, at least not what I found that it's

227
00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:29.240
something that does open doorways, and if it doesn't, actually,

228
00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.480
from the perspective of extorsist that I spoke to, they

229
00:14:32.559 --> 00:14:37.799
agreed that it can open spiritual or metaphysical doorways. By contrast,

230
00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:42.360
the psychologists that I spoke to both said that it

231
00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:46.360
can open doorways on a subconscious level, which to me,

232
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:49.799
you know, is very closely aligned with that metaphysical or

233
00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.840
spiritual component. So it just maybe again another idea of

234
00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:57.159
the linguistic difference, but kind of a leaf coming to

235
00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:00.559
the same conclusion that for whichever reason, however you may

236
00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:04.919
have developed the methodology to reach that conclusion, is probably

237
00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:08.039
not a good idea to dabble because it can open

238
00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:14.480
doors and those doors are perhaps you know, subjective. However,

239
00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.240
somebody wants to describe that, whether again the spiritual doors

240
00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.279
or if it's a subconscious doors, some would argue those

241
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.320
are one and the same, and that would just be

242
00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.559
a you know, that question of splitting the mind, the

243
00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:29.279
idea of mind the mind body, and that maybe that's

244
00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:32.600
something we shouldn't do because they're connected and holistic way

245
00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:37.200
that that subconscious and that consciousness, the spirituality component of it,

246
00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:41.519
they're actually more closely related. I mean, that's that's kind

247
00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:45.240
of where I would tend to follow the idea that yeah,

248
00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:51.320
there's the spiritual and then there's also something that's more psychological,

249
00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:55.240
and that those things are actually not in conflict. And

250
00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.200
as much as it may seem like they are to

251
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:01.200
somebody with a particular bias or the end, I see

252
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.559
a lot of ways that they overlap, at least for

253
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:06.480
you know, the practical outcome. And so at the end

254
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:08.559
of the day, if you're you know, somebody's concerned about

255
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:11.720
bringing that negativity to them, whether they think it's in

256
00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.159
the form of an antipomorphized entity or if it's just

257
00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:17.919
something that maybe it is superstitious and they don't want

258
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:22.080
that to enter their psyche. However they reached that, I

259
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:29.480
think it's probably helpful to at least not open those doors.

260
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:34.759
All right. Well, actually, as you were talking, I kind

261
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:38.080
of had a question too. It was, you know, you

262
00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:41.039
mentioned earlier, and I read in the book about how

263
00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:46.120
there were there were a lot of different cultures that

264
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:53.759
would use different things to let out the the evil spirits,

265
00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:58.360
even though really they were they were kind of truly

266
00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:00.000
treating diseases as well.

267
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:00.399
Well.

268
00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:10.279
How often the not were there deaths or even brain

269
00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:16.400
damage from these particular evil spirit letting out type practices.

270
00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:23.720
Well, you know, I think there I don't know if

271
00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.359
I actually reference a particular number, because as you said,

272
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.640
that is something cross culturally you'll find because of the

273
00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:33.400
different ways that people perform exorcism, So there would be

274
00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:36.000
actually quite a few. If you look at you know,

275
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:38.920
especially in foreign countries, you'll see a lot of people

276
00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:41.799
doing something with maybe folk medicine or things that maybe

277
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:46.759
wouldn't be you know, something we would consider safe maybe

278
00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:52.920
in a more developed country. However it's it's it's not

279
00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:57.559
even safe to consider it just because it's a developed nation.

280
00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:01.200
Something that would be modern or content temporary that oh well,

281
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.720
it'll happen without a flaw or you know, because we've

282
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:09.400
actually seen in recent relatively recent years people in the

283
00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:16.319
United States dying from these activities and so bridges. In

284
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:21.759
ninety seven, there was a woman killed in California, and

285
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:24.400
in New York about the same year, a five year

286
00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:28.680
old died after she was made to swallow a cocktail

287
00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:34.160
of ammonia vinegar and had her mouth sealed shut. I mean,

288
00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:37.920
she died from that. And this happened a lot in

289
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:42.079
the nineties. The seventeen year old was suffocated by her

290
00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:44.519
mother with a plastic bag because she was trying to

291
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.160
chill the devil who she believed to be inside her. Now,

292
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.839
arguably that wouldn't be a prescribed exorcism. That could be

293
00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:56.480
just mother having these delusions and then unfortunately killing her child.

294
00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:59.519
But then in two thousand and one there's a woman

295
00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:02.119
in New ze that was actually strangled by a priest

296
00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:04.960
during an exorcism. And the list goes on and on

297
00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:08.759
about all of these different activities that have taken place

298
00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:13.240
well meaning people in some cases, some cases not. But

299
00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:17.400
it is something to consider that the idea of exorcisms.

300
00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:20.839
They're very traumatic, they're very dangerous, they're not something to

301
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:26.920
be taken lightly, and they're definitely it's not like they

302
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:28.839
show in the movies. We'll just say that it's not

303
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.480
even in the movies. It looks very traumatic, but I

304
00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:34.079
mean again, they're very real, quiet consequences for things like this,

305
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:38.440
and you know, people have died, they've died of dehydration,

306
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.200
lack of oxygen, just the mental torment of it all,

307
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.240
and definitely mental illness has played a part in some

308
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:51.359
of that. So there's been a case in the South Germany.

309
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:55.759
It was actually a pretty famous case to film for

310
00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:59.920
made about this girl's ordeal, The Exorcism of Emily Rose

311
00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:02.319
in two thousand and five, and a movie called Rereclion

312
00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:04.960
in two thousand and six, and this was a story

313
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:09.319
from actually nineteen sixty eight. The girl was diagnosed with

314
00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:13.799
epilepsy and was on medication, but it wasn't really helping her,

315
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:17.319
and so by the seventies she ended up being admitted

316
00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:20.960
to the hospital for six months having tuberculosis, and she

317
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.160
just became more depressed and had more issues, and in

318
00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:28.599
medication still wasn't working, and so a neurologist found that

319
00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:32.519
her EEG was starting to show abnormality, and a week

320
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.319
later she claimed to see a demon in a vision

321
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.640
and she would start to pray, and then the prayer

322
00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:43.119
just became longer and more intense, and then she would

323
00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:46.920
become really afraid and paranoid and in some cases delusional.

324
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:49.839
But this went on for a few years until she

325
00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:53.519
would just suffer countless seizures and continue to see what

326
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:57.240
she described as demonic faces with horns, and she said

327
00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:01.720
she smell horrible sulfuric smells. It was just an ordeal.

328
00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:04.039
And so by this point her father took her to

329
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:10.039
a northern Italian town and told her, you know, she

330
00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.039
was going to be healed, and this was where she

331
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:15.559
would see Mary. It had been a place of pilgrimage

332
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:20.160
for people for many years. And while she was there,

333
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:23.279
she fell to the ground and said that her feet

334
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:27.039
were on fire. They called the local priests for help,

335
00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:33.039
and they started to give her an impromptu exorcism. And

336
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:36.119
at this point she started tearing off her clothes, urinating

337
00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:39.200
on the floor. She was eating whatever she could find,

338
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:43.279
and she like just grabbing handfuls of dirt, and she

339
00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:48.640
attacked the priest. And apparently the priests say that the

340
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:53.759
demon who had taken possession of her called himself Judas,

341
00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:55.640
and so they kept trying to help her, and it

342
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.920
took years, and you know, after the mid seventies, they

343
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.839
had these failed attempts to help her with these exorcisms

344
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:06.680
and still with medication, and so the priest decided to

345
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:10.279
try harder and go in for more intensive exorcism. And

346
00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:14.640
so the demons, including the Judas demons and then others

347
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:19.640
that called themselves Lucifer, Hitler, Nero, they started become increasingly violent.

348
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:22.440
And this girl had just gone through the ringer close

349
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.119
to a decade, starting with the you know, the delusions

350
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:30.279
or the you know, epileptic seizures and not all the

351
00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:33.440
way to this just violent flaming her head against the wall,

352
00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:37.839
not sleeping, not eating, and her knees actually broke after

353
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.799
she had been kneeling so many times to pray, and

354
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:46.599
so by the time she ended up dying and it

355
00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:50.480
was a day after her this is mind blowing, but

356
00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:54.920
her sixty seven exorcism, and she had died from losing

357
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:57.799
so much weight and going through all of this, and

358
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:01.400
so the cause of death was actually malnutrition and dehydration.

359
00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:04.759
And at the time she died, she weighed only seventy pounds,

360
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:07.799
and you can imagine a grown woman, you know, at

361
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:12.519
this point weighing seventy pounds, and her parents and the

362
00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:17.799
two priests who were involved in this were actually convicted

363
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:21.920
of negligent homicide. And so as a result, you know,

364
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.079
there's a lot of legends about her, and of course

365
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:28.960
these movies that had been made, and so it can

366
00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:32.279
be a very dangerous thing. And so that it's hard

367
00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:34.400
to untack that because you could say, well, clearly she

368
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.119
had epilepsy and that was the cause of her illness.

369
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:40.039
She had, you know, the doctors failed her, her parents

370
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:44.839
failed her, the priest failed her. These these entities, you know,

371
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:47.839
was the words, was she suffering just from these delusions

372
00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:51.200
or at which point do you draw the line between

373
00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:58.119
either you know, delusions or these are actual possessions of entities.

374
00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:01.680
And either way, again, it's something to be taken very

375
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:06.640
seriously because she tragically dies, and you would think that

376
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:09.960
that would you know, have people maybe considering this a

377
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:12.680
little more, looking into a little more, or regulating it

378
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:15.920
at the very least. But even though there are these

379
00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:21.039
clear dangers, the exorcisms have become more popular than ever.

380
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:26.119
They're on the rise in many countries, in Italy and

381
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:29.759
in the Vatican and you know, in the Catholic you

382
00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:34.079
know practice that's become something that has been increasingly popular.

383
00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:38.480
But then also in an evangelical movement. It's been something

384
00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:41.319
that's very popular in the United States, and I discussed

385
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:43.720
that a little bit in the book as well, my experience,

386
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:49.160
especially witnessing what would maybe be looked at as a

387
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:53.079
non traditional style exorcism if you consider the traditional one

388
00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:56.920
to be something recognizable in pop culture, like the you know,

389
00:24:57.160 --> 00:24:59.640
pries saying demon, what is your name? And this sort

390
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:04.000
of thing. So, but the practice is becoming more and

391
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.640
more popular, and you know, with that, I guess that

392
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:09.279
means there's going to be you know, a lot more

393
00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:13.759
potential for dangers and so and what's interesting too, are

394
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:17.599
there there are some psychologists that are starting to incorporate

395
00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:22.359
exorcism into their practices because they believe that there may

396
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:25.440
be some you know, benefit to it if your client

397
00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:29.559
or patient is somebody who have these pre existing beliefs

398
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:33.400
already or so, you know that it comes down to

399
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:37.640
that symbolism again. You know, in my view that if

400
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.480
it works, if it's something that you can use to

401
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:43.119
have them break through and have this understanding and maybe

402
00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:45.720
that can reach into the subconscious and heal them in

403
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.279
some way. And that and then in that case, is

404
00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:50.440
that they're subconscious or is this their spirit? Is that

405
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:53.039
what that is? Or you know, it might seem just

406
00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:56.440
like semantics again or putting hairs, But this, to me

407
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.119
was one of the important themes in the book is

408
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:02.160
just trying to figure out what are we talking about

409
00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:06.759
when it comes to evil and demons, because it's so

410
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.200
easy to just imagine a demon as if they hooved

411
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:16.359
read character with horns, and then not completely appreciate what

412
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:20.519
we understand as humans to be a demonic entity.

413
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.319
Right, Yeah, that's really interesting. It's like, even as a psychologist,

414
00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:31.359
maybe someone who doesn't believe in the same religious beliefs

415
00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:34.119
that the person who they're talking with, you know, doing

416
00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:38.039
the exorcism. Maybe to the patient it's it's like a

417
00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:41.359
drug that actually helps them, whereas to the psychologists it's

418
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.960
a placebo something they don't necessarily believe, but still affects

419
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.920
the mind. And that's still, you know, I think it's

420
00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:51.599
really interesting just in general. I didn't know that someone

421
00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:56.640
were doing that these days. Now. You've mentioned a couple

422
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.839
of demons just a little bit ago, and you mentioned

423
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:02.400
number of demons throughout the book, but one that I

424
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.920
would like to discuss, and I'm let me know if

425
00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:08.279
I mispronounced either of these names, but I'd like to

426
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:13.200
discuss as Modius for a moment now. According to your research,

427
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:16.200
and this is actually just so everyone knows, this comes

428
00:27:16.200 --> 00:27:19.079
from the chapter called Summoning Demons that you talk about this.

429
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:22.319
But according to your research, who was an especially wretched

430
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:28.039
demon that was perhaps enslaved by is it Ornius? Okay,

431
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:32.240
saved by Ornias through the magic Ring of Solomon, which

432
00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:35.160
was given unto Solomon as a gift from God by

433
00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:39.920
the archangel Michael. Now Solomon lent or Nias after capturing

434
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.880
him he lent it to Ornias to capture other demons

435
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:48.359
for the construction of Solomon's temple. Now, in the book,

436
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:51.440
you had mentioned that the similarities between as Modius and

437
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:56.640
a Lucifer are actually remarkably similar. My question is, would

438
00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.319
you mind sharing some of the attributes shared between these

439
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:03.680
two entities and also what ultimately separates them as two

440
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:06.480
separate demons as opposed to possibly the same demon with

441
00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:07.440
two different names.

442
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:11.119
Wow, do you know? That is a really great question?

443
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:18.359
And well, so I would start by saying that they

444
00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:25.839
were two different demons in the interpretation and just the story. However,

445
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:35.079
I believe that given their particular attributes, I really think

446
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:37.240
that they were one and the same in a lot

447
00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:40.359
of ways. And that's that's one of these cases where

448
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:45.839
maybe it came through and had that religious syncretism where

449
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:49.400
some of these things melded into one and then became

450
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:53.440
the other, et cetera. I think that this is more

451
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:57.480
about it being a Promethean figure. So I don't know

452
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:00.279
that they are two separate ones. Clearly they're they have

453
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.799
two separate stories, but a lot of these stories have crossover.

454
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.000
A lot of these stories are very ancient, but then

455
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:09.039
they are revived in the Renaissance, and then they're you know,

456
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:12.880
expanded or changed many different authors and a written different versions,

457
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:16.880
and then all these spreads of similarity between these types

458
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:24.920
of Promethean figures. And so while as Madius is well,

459
00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:28.000
he was considered the demon of occult wisdom and human

460
00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:33.559
technological advances, and he was considered also the successor to

461
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:38.119
the Egyptian god of wisdom and learning Task, who both

462
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:41.319
of them were linked to serious And so I mean,

463
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:44.799
it sounds like kind of strange maybe to your listeners

464
00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:48.319
that these demons could be connected to these Egyptian gods,

465
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:53.160
but again it might be. It's one of these things

466
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:58.039
that I discussed in the Book of Demonizing the process

467
00:29:58.039 --> 00:30:01.880
of demonizing, and so it's throughout a lot of these

468
00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:06.960
ancient cultures they had these these gods or these entities.

469
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:10.759
They sometimes they didn't even separate the demons from the angel.

470
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:15.799
They would just consider them these spiritual entities. But either way,

471
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.640
they they would take on these attributes and Chane's the

472
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:21.400
way they looked or what have ei, their name depending

473
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:24.279
on what culture they would be in, but their key

474
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:29.000
components would their personality would stay the same. So that's

475
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:32.759
what lead me to believe that they were the same

476
00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:37.759
figure because of how they're portrayed in all of these

477
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:43.000
different cultures. One for example, is that in Islamic tradition,

478
00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:47.440
Asmodius was considered a gin, and it's the very same

479
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:50.279
gin that cheated a Laddin out of the ring to

480
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:53.359
secure the magic lamp. I mean, it's the very very

481
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:59.319
common and popular, you know being. So it's like Asmodius

482
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:02.559
was the case of these demons, and Musipero is considered

483
00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:05.480
to be, you know, the king of these demons, and

484
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:07.960
a lot of the different stories and so and again,

485
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:12.759
with a Promethean figure to connect them to Prometheus, who

486
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:18.240
I had the similar feature of being, say, an entity

487
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.799
of wisdom or technological advances. And in a lot of ways,

488
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:26.920
I just I think that these are I don't want

489
00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:29.279
to dismiss them by saying, well, these are just names

490
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:34.279
for the same thing, because they do contain very different

491
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:39.279
and specific attributes and characteristics that link them to their

492
00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:43.279
particular times and cultures. However, it is my belief that

493
00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:46.799
they are referencing the same spirit or entity, and that

494
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:50.000
spirit or entity or even architect, if you will, is

495
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:55.359
that of the trickster, the you know, Promethean figure and

496
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:58.680
that sort of thing, and so that would be I think,

497
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:03.440
in our society be considered lucifer. So I do thinksmodius

498
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:05.680
is lucifer and lucifer is emodium.

499
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:12.079
Okay, well, this particular chapter is actually just really fascinating

500
00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:15.720
to me. And so moving on to a page one

501
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:20.359
under the subtopic of possession pandemic, you actually talk a

502
00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:24.000
little bit about how, according to some Muslim researchers, GIN

503
00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:27.920
can be responsible for a number of psychological disorders. Now,

504
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:30.279
it is in fact believed that a GIN doesn't need

505
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:33.039
to fully possess a person, but can cause physical and

506
00:32:33.079 --> 00:32:37.279
emotional trauma by infiltrating the human brain, either directly or

507
00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:40.480
through the bloodstream, in order to affect the hormones and

508
00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:46.240
neurotransmitters of a person. Now, this section is again really

509
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:51.240
interesting to me, but what actually piqued my curiosity was

510
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:54.680
a sentence that you wrote that said, some Muslim researchers

511
00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:57.880
have suggested that the presence of GIN can be detected

512
00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:03.000
by MRI or magnetic resonance imaging. And so my question is,

513
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:06.400
was there at all in any of your research any

514
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:10.160
indication on how an MRI expose a gin or what

515
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.160
a gin's presence with any human body may actually look like.

516
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:19.079
Yes, actually, this is something that I found to be

517
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:23.000
so important I had to put it into the book,

518
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:28.279
but also a little frustrating because it's it's not as

519
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:33.880
developed as well it probably you know, I have limitations

520
00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:36.480
in my in my language and ability to translate. So

521
00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:40.039
there's a lot more scientific research out there available that

522
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:43.400
I unfortunately wasn't able to translate. So from what I

523
00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:48.920
my limited ability to get English versions of different research,

524
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.519
I found that this is a legitimate study in the

525
00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:59.240
Islamic world to track down GIN as a physical phenomenon.

526
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:03.240
And they've used different things like MRIs to try to

527
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:07.000
find what it is that you know, could be responsible

528
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:12.639
if they could detect it somehow, And so yes, they

529
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:18.360
it's a little, at least in my opinion's a little unconvincing.

530
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:23.559
So they just look at these different activity areas that

531
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:29.679
are you know, I guess illuminated in the mind that

532
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:33.000
they've sort of linked to particular types of what they

533
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:36.760
believe would be a possession. Again, it's something that I'm like, well,

534
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:39.440
maybe within a different contact that could be helpful. So

535
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:43.960
I didn't see anything that was overwhelmingly convincing, which is

536
00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:47.599
why I think what I found to be even more

537
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:52.480
interesting was the research that had to do with looking

538
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:55.679
at the molecular explanation for demons at the post of

539
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:59.039
the MRI, because it continued the idea of a germ

540
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:02.039
theory of demon ilogy that they were able to back

541
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:07.480
up with mathematic models. And I thought that is really

542
00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:10.239
interesting because again instead of looking at you know, an

543
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:14.239
MRI and any sort of scans are you know, clearly scientific,

544
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:16.719
but there's a little bit of subjectivity that can go

545
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:19.639
into them by having to look at them or have

546
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.440
your senses. But so I don't want to call it qualitative,

547
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:26.199
but it's there's definitely a little bit of of user

548
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:28.920
bias that could enter that. So when I saw that

549
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:33.159
what they were doing, in addition to the MRI is

550
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:39.880
using mathematic models to not only identify the GIN, but

551
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:47.320
to to predict their behavior within a certain level of accuracy,

552
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:50.679
I thought, wait a minute, Now now it's getting quantitative.

553
00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:52.800
Now it's getting a little on the harder edge of science.

554
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:54.679
I thought, what For one thing, I thought it was

555
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:59.000
quite fascinating that there's actual finance, you know, research going

556
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:02.559
into this at a university level. And of course some

557
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:05.480
people have cited that part of the book as being

558
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:10.079
you know, objectionable because they say, well, it's pseudoscience and

559
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:13.440
et cetera. But I, you know, if they're using the

560
00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:16.559
scientific method and that's the way they'd like to look

561
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:18.519
into that, I have no problem with that. I don't

562
00:36:18.519 --> 00:36:21.880
think that there's anything wrong with natural curiosity and also

563
00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:26.440
trying to use science to perhaps investigate issues of religion

564
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:29.199
or theology. And so from my perspective, it was very

565
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:32.360
exciting research. And so again they have that idea of

566
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:36.320
maybe germ theory of demonology that's very much similar to

567
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:41.480
the ancient Mesopotamian approach to demonology. And so in this

568
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:45.960
kind of explanation for demons, they think of it beyond

569
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:49.400
just mental illness, but also related to the mental illness,

570
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:55.239
but that these gin or evil spirits are sort of

571
00:36:55.280 --> 00:37:00.239
responsible for things like epilepsy, autoimmune even cancer. And so

572
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:03.280
according to some of the scientists in Morocco that are

573
00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:07.880
working on this research, these spirits are invisible to the

574
00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:11.559
naked eye, but not like ghosts or something, but more

575
00:37:11.960 --> 00:37:15.920
like microbes. And they contend that the existence of these

576
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:22.159
evil spiritual molecules exists beyond human perception, but that they

577
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:24.880
they believe they're getting close to being able to pick

578
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:29.000
them up through ways like MRI or you know, advanced

579
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:33.199
my crops, you know, microscopes, using using many different methods

580
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:35.280
to try to find them. But in the meantime, if

581
00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:37.320
they thought, well, we're going to look at this molecular

582
00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:41.159
composition of these evil spirits and try to figure out

583
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:44.519
some of the key questions. And so interestingly, they they

584
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.719
thought about the idea of demons sort of being linked

585
00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:51.280
to the darkness. And in all of the they old entailed,

586
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:55.239
you know, demons don't like light. They they spook around

587
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:58.920
corners or in you know, dark places, and so the

588
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:02.360
idea of that is that they're averse to light, which

589
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.480
explains why they appear at night and they're in the dark.

590
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:08.239
And they believe that they have their own then physical

591
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:11.840
laws or wife cycles, and that they can enter the

592
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:16.239
bloodstream and rapidly multiply and and uh so they've sort

593
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:21.199
of built this whole system around this by using faith,

594
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:24.440
I would say, first as a guide and then using

595
00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:27.239
the scientific method to try to test that or detect that.

596
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:31.280
And you know, but I thought it was so fascinating

597
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:34.039
that they were able to You should look at the

598
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:39.039
mathematic models and try to figure out and a claim

599
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:43.599
are able to predict the movement of these demons and

600
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:47.119
how they'll manifest in the in the physical body of somebody.

601
00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:51.239
Now again it's it's hard to get It's definitely something

602
00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:55.360
to look at with a healthy level of skepticism. And

603
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:59.480
you know, it's another maybe ethical question, or some people

604
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:03.239
it should science dictate our beliefs or should our beliefs

605
00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:06.679
dictate science? But which comes first? But I felt it

606
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:09.440
was important to add into the book just simply because

607
00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:11.480
I think it's important to kind of get out of

608
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:16.039
our own, you know, Western centric way of approaching science

609
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:19.320
and explore what other people are doing and how they're

610
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.480
looking at it. It might, you know, help to expand

611
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:26.360
our understanding of these things called gin or even demon So,

612
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:30.679
but yeah, I think there's some exciting research on the horizon,

613
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:34.000
and I would really really love to see sort of

614
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:37.719
a more inner disciplinary approach to looking at this. If anything,

615
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:43.239
I think it would help expand ideas, you know, medicine.

616
00:39:43.480 --> 00:39:45.920
Yeah, I absolutely agree, And like you know, I over

617
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:49.920
the years, I've constantly said, how I think just science

618
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:53.760
and religion really have to have a balanced marriage between

619
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:56.519
the two because we're always getting this, you know, religion

620
00:39:56.559 --> 00:40:00.440
says this, science as that, and we're always mutting heads. Lately,

621
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:04.679
it seems like seeing something like this with the MRI

622
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:08.679
and how we can detect possibly not demonic ansties through

623
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:12.480
science while still claiming yeah, hey there's a possibility, but

624
00:40:13.480 --> 00:40:16.800
maybe not. This is the evidence for both sides. It's

625
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:19.199
just really an interesting thing and I think very very

626
00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:24.400
important for researchers, especially those within the paranormal field and

627
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:26.800
the account so to really get on board with.

628
00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:31.400
I agree. I think it's very important to start looking

629
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:36.440
towards the scientific method or using scientific tools and quantitative

630
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:41.480
methods to try to you know, separate the cream, so

631
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:45.840
hopefully we'll have more of that. I don't think it's

632
00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:48.599
I think it's I think it's good. I don't think

633
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:50.840
that it is. This is my personal opinion, But I

634
00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:54.880
don't think that it is a challenging faith to use

635
00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:59.760
science to try to investigate the natural world into trying

636
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:03.119
to do those things. I think that it can actually

637
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:05.960
strengthen face and do a great service. And I'm just

638
00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:07.719
one of those people I don't believe that there should

639
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:13.000
be that just disregarding it as superstition. I think that

640
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:16.480
in a lot of ways, religion and that maybe spiritual

641
00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:20.159
sense not necessarily organized, but just the idea of religion

642
00:41:20.840 --> 00:41:25.960
in a human sense. It's actually the precursor to science.

643
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:28.719
It was the first way we tried to, you know,

644
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:31.639
understand the world around us and the happenings. And we

645
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:34.880
had philosophy and then science, and I just don't think

646
00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:39.039
that they belong to so separately. I think that it's

647
00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:43.559
important to use science to understand the things that we

648
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:44.280
don't understand.

649
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:46.320
Agreed.

650
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:52.239
I think we've found our muse eric for the paratruth

651
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:57.679
radio in doctor Heather Lynn. So something you bring up

652
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:01.239
in the book, and I think it's like really important

653
00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:04.719
that we do this. But I am kind of curious

654
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:09.920
about your intentions about putting the Protections against Evil in

655
00:42:09.960 --> 00:42:12.880
the book, because you had mentioned earlier about how uh

656
00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:16.719
psychologists are using exorcism as a way to treat patients.

657
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:17.400
Uh.

658
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:20.360
What what was your your original thought about putting that

659
00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:22.000
particular chapter in the book.

660
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:32.320
The chapter about then can you explain that.

661
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:32.960
One more time.

662
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:38.519
The deliver us from evil, may we no longer fear

663
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:41.480
any evil, all those different ways that you can protect

664
00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:42.320
yourself from evil.

665
00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:46.000
Yeah, well, I felt that was so important to add

666
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:48.639
into the books because a lot of the book, if

667
00:42:48.679 --> 00:42:51.880
I if I'm discussing things like curial killing or you know,

668
00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:57.320
a lot of these horrific archaeological fines, and you know it,

669
00:42:57.320 --> 00:43:01.000
it seems, you know, a little could seem at least

670
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:05.639
a little disheartening, discouraging. And I really wanted to point

671
00:43:05.639 --> 00:43:08.000
out that drop a lot of my research and my

672
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:11.760
interviews that this wasn't something to fear, that we didn't

673
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:15.800
have reason to actually fear. And it's from what I've

674
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:19.079
found to be the case with the interviews is that

675
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:23.679
fear is actually more dangerous than you know. If you're

676
00:43:23.719 --> 00:43:30.000
trying to not have an evil entity around you already

677
00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:34.079
kind of like negative influence, then the you definitely don't

678
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:37.280
want to have feared, and so fear is something that

679
00:43:38.119 --> 00:43:42.280
can create vulnerability. And again, it could be the argument

680
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:45.159
that will that fear puts you into some sort of

681
00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:48.239
like metaphysical state of negativity and then that leaves the

682
00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:54.119
door open for something you know, otherworldly to enter your life.

683
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:57.719
Or it could also be that perspective of if you

684
00:43:57.800 --> 00:44:01.039
dwell on a negative place psychologically, you'll be more prone

685
00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:04.280
to go down those negative, dark roads. Either way, I

686
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:08.280
thought it was very important to you know, balance and

687
00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:11.199
at least maybe end the book to a certain extent

688
00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:15.800
with that advice of you know, not being afraid and

689
00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:18.760
looking at some of the ways that ancient people try

690
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:22.119
to protect themselves in the past and how people are

691
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:25.639
trying to protect themselves now and is there anything that

692
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:29.039
we can glean from that or are they all just superstitions.

693
00:44:29.239 --> 00:44:31.559
Is it just oh, you know, hold on to the

694
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:34.360
amulets and that'll make you feel better, or know, is

695
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:36.679
there anything like that? And I really have to say

696
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:40.639
I'm really grateful to Bill Bean for his input into this.

697
00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:46.960
He really got me to see his experience with exorcisms,

698
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:49.519
you know. I talked to him for a very long

699
00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:54.239
time in many interviews, and it was fascinating to see

700
00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:59.239
how similar the experiences he had and has on a

701
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:02.800
regular basis actually have been to some of the accounts

702
00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:06.960
of ancient exorcists, except he didn't even necessarily know that.

703
00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:10.639
So it was really interesting to see that there were

704
00:45:10.679 --> 00:45:14.079
these similarities. And the advice that he gave is something

705
00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:19.920
that while it may sound very basic, or very contemporary

706
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:23.320
is something that is shared throughout many cultures yet again

707
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:27.639
and many different time periods, that if you want to

708
00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:32.719
invite positivity into your life, something good and deflect any

709
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.840
sort of evil, there are a handful of things that

710
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:39.480
somebody could or should do that can make them less

711
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:43.639
likely to encounter those evil things that might be a

712
00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:47.000
little dangerous. The idea could be dangerous to put out

713
00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:50.880
because it almost borders on that idea of the secret

714
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.679
or you know what, the law of attraction, all of

715
00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:57.079
these sort of new age ideas, which can be dangerous

716
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:00.760
because it also have a foot in the idea of

717
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:03.719
victim blaming, where you can have so much huberic that

718
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:07.159
you think that you alone can deflect the evil or

719
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:10.760
attract the positive, and so when things don't go that way,

720
00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:13.360
then it's easy to you know, point a finger of blame.

721
00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:16.199
And so if not something you know, I'm trying to do,

722
00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:19.000
but it's something that I thought it needed to be

723
00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:20.880
said so that people could at least have a hope

724
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:22.920
will view on what things they made be able to

725
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:26.760
do to protect themselves, especially if they already felt that

726
00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:30.880
they had been in having an encounter with a demon.

727
00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:34.079
Because I had gotten a lot of emails from people

728
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:37.440
who wanted to discuss this with me, and I've been

729
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:40.440
on shows where people have caulled in and discussed that

730
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:44.320
they are being tormented actively by demons, and so I

731
00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:47.119
thought that, you know, there are actually people out there

732
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:52.039
that may benefit from some of the advice that is

733
00:46:52.119 --> 00:46:55.199
again not necessarily coming from me. I don't have the

734
00:46:55.239 --> 00:46:58.920
credentials to tell people how to ward off evil spirit

735
00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:05.719
that it just basically, you know, an amalgamation of historical

736
00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:09.840
insights and the advice of other people and then maybe

737
00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:13.960
a little commentsense thrown into that. So you know, I

738
00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:16.639
do have a section in there on how to protect

739
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:20.519
yourself and against demons. And one one thing that I,

740
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:23.440
you know, found to be interesting is the something as

741
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.119
simple as cleaning your personal staith and your living environment.

742
00:47:27.800 --> 00:47:30.800
You know, the things like that putting, putting things that

743
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:33.760
you enjoy around you, things that are uplifting and spiritual.

744
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:36.639
And it may sound wishy washing and again little New

745
00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:42.679
A's or something, but I just see that to me,

746
00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:46.440
it just it's so true because when you start, when

747
00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:48.800
you look at maybe like some of my descriptions of

748
00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:54.360
the house and environments that the the murder from North Carolina.

749
00:47:55.519 --> 00:48:00.480
Had he surrounded himself with occult symbols and you know,

750
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:04.800
pictures of demons and a horrifically filthy environment. And at

751
00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:07.719
this point he was already in the throes of whatever

752
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:11.159
had him, and so much so that he, you know,

753
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:13.800
surrounded himself with the dead bodies of his own neighbors.

754
00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:18.239
So clearly we have this extreme example of the surroundings

755
00:48:18.239 --> 00:48:20.599
being a reflection of what was going on inside. And

756
00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:25.719
so you know, with both people who were religious in

757
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:30.800
the thinking spiritual, and even psychologists or just old fashioned

758
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:32.679
folk advice and all the way up to what then

759
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:36.360
I would consider to be self evident or just maybe

760
00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:39.559
common sense, but the idea that if you maintain order

761
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:43.320
around you, that you're you know, building a spiritual protection

762
00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:46.800
and maybe not if you're concerned about evil entities, maybe

763
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:49.400
don't decorate your room with a bunch of you know,

764
00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:53.840
pentagrams and demonic images and you know, try to actively

765
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:57.840
do what Bill Bean called living in warrior mode. And

766
00:48:58.159 --> 00:48:59.800
I thought that was a really good piece of advice.

767
00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:03.679
That's it's really cool, and it's it makes me think

768
00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:06.760
of all the different like there's a window decals and

769
00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:10.320
T shirts that say, good vibes on them, and it's

770
00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:12.280
pretty much the same in a way. It's the same thing.

771
00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:16.440
You know, I have that positive outlook on life, be thoughtful, uh,

772
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:19.880
and just keep those good vibes around because negativity really

773
00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:26.800
does bring on negative things, whether that be a physical, emotional, spiritual.

774
00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:29.360
So we just got to be aware of what we

775
00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:33.840
put around us, whether it be people or objects or anything. Uh,

776
00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:36.960
and just take on life head on and just be

777
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:41.760
garbage in, garbage out the absolutely.

778
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:43.440
Well.

779
00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:46.559
Unfortunately, this does bring us to the end of the show.

780
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:49.199
So doctor, I would like to give you a moment

781
00:49:49.239 --> 00:49:51.880
here to kind of tell everybody where they can find you,

782
00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:53.559
where they could pick up your book, and of course

783
00:49:53.559 --> 00:49:55.519
share any information you'd like to share.

784
00:49:57.280 --> 00:49:59.519
Oh, you can find me on my website, which is

785
00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:04.360
doctor Heatherlin dot com. That's dr heatherlinn dot com. And

786
00:50:04.599 --> 00:50:08.039
my books are available at the all bookstores, They're on Amazon,

787
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:11.719
and they're on audiobook as well. And I have a

788
00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:13.960
new book out right now called The Honor Naki Connection.

789
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:19.440
It's about human origins and the fate of humanity as well.

790
00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:22.800
So uh yeah, and if you I'm also on social

791
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.559
media Facebook, those types of things but just come to

792
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:27.440
my website and you'll be able to learn more about

793
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:28.039
me and my books.

794
00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:33.280
All right, doctor Heather Lynn, thank you so much for

795
00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:34.960
being on Pearatruth Radio.

796
00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:39.119
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a really,

797
00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:41.039
really great honor. I really love the show.

798
00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:47.400
Thanks all right, folks, that was Heather Lynn, author of

799
00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:54.360
Evil Archaeology, Demons Possessions, and Sinister Relics. She has a

800
00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:59.079
couple more works out or in in the works to

801
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:01.800
come out, so definitely looking forward to that.

802
00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:05.400
We had just gotten off the line fine with Doc

803
00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:08.719
Demon's Possessions and to Minister Relics. If you have not

804
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:11.320
read this book, I do recommend picking it up. It

805
00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:14.800
was a really interesting read, very fascinating, and I had

806
00:51:14.800 --> 00:51:16.679
a lot of fun with this this interview here today.

807
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:18.559
There's a lot of information in this book that I

808
00:51:18.599 --> 00:51:23.400
think we've talked a little bit about over the years,

809
00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:25.559
but we got to dive into some really interesting stuff,

810
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:30.679
especially in how science and religion or faith can very

811
00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:33.599
night in the same topics, you know, and the same thing.

812
00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:40.280
So m hm, yeah, So I've after reading through it

813
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:44.719
and talked to her. I actually really loved the fact

814
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:49.559
that she kind of has done what we've talked about

815
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:53.360
for a long time, brought science and religion together to

816
00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:56.920
talk about these things. Not once did she ever claim

817
00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:01.320
that she believed one way or the other into these

818
00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:05.440
different things, which I thought was a very academic way

819
00:52:05.639 --> 00:52:10.400
of looking at it. But at the same time, you know,

820
00:52:11.199 --> 00:52:15.239
we've talked about it several times, how science and religion

821
00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:18.320
have to have a coming back together because at one

822
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:21.039
point they were together and then they split because of

823
00:52:21.159 --> 00:52:23.119
some rumors started.

824
00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:32.360
By broken soil. So all that happens at divorce. That's

825
00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:33.119
pretty much.

826
00:52:34.639 --> 00:52:38.519
So what are what are some of the things that

827
00:52:38.599 --> 00:52:40.440
you took from this or what are some of your

828
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:43.000
final thoughts about the interview in the book?

829
00:52:45.719 --> 00:52:49.320
Yeah, so, I mean there was there's still had more

830
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:51.920
questions that I would have been great to have asked,

831
00:52:52.159 --> 00:52:55.159
you know. Unfortunately we are on a time limit with

832
00:52:55.239 --> 00:52:59.000
this show, so that's a little disappointing. But like I said,

833
00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:00.800
there's a lot of things that are really just found

834
00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:03.599
it interesting. And you know, there's a we talked about

835
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:07.360
it a little bit, she got into it, but there

836
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:14.639
was a chapter titled the most Horrific archaeolog Archaeological Finds,

837
00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:18.599
and that was another fascinating chapter, and she went into

838
00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:24.960
basically different archaeological sites or archaeological finds that were really

839
00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:33.000
just actually about a Neolithic massacre, which was a huge,

840
00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:38.039
like massive bone pit that showed various bones of men

841
00:53:38.119 --> 00:53:43.760
and women, primarily women know and young children, which looked

842
00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:51.400
like ritualistic murders or ritualistic sacrifices. But what was really

843
00:53:51.400 --> 00:53:53.480
interesting that she found were that some of these bones

844
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:57.280
had markings as if the flesh was cut from the

845
00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:00.960
bone itself. I guess some of her colleagues believe that

846
00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:03.880
it was just part of the sacrifice. She had actually

847
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:06.199
thought that there's much more to it, and at this

848
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:18.119
particular site, people would actually cannibalize the sacrifices afterwards. Now apparently,

849
00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:21.519
I think it, as far as I could tell, the

850
00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:25.440
area in which this happened only lasted, like the village

851
00:54:25.639 --> 00:54:29.039
only lasted about fifty years. I think nobody really knows

852
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:30.679
that they picked up and moved on, or if it

853
00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:33.039
just kind of crumbled. But it was one of those

854
00:54:33.039 --> 00:54:37.239
things that were just really creepy and interesting, and another

855
00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:39.079
one that I actually kind of liked because you know

856
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:41.840
how I am with the idea of witchcraft, and it

857
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:44.119
just is something interesting to me by about the history

858
00:54:44.119 --> 00:54:48.800
of witchcraft. And there's this section called witch bottles and

859
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:53.639
Smoked Cats. Don't know if you're not the most fun

860
00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:58.119
read in regards to the smoked cats, But there is

861
00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:00.880
these witch bottles that people were finding that archaeologists are

862
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:03.880
finding all over the world, even here in America, especially

863
00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:06.760
in the New England area, in which there were these

864
00:55:06.920 --> 00:55:14.400
small bottles that contain things like urine and pins or needles,

865
00:55:14.519 --> 00:55:19.039
nail clippings, hair clippings, you know, various different things. And

866
00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:20.559
it was believed that if you had one of these

867
00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:22.960
bottles and put it into a wall or buried it underground,

868
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:26.079
it would protect you from any type of bewitch, maut

869
00:55:26.119 --> 00:55:28.840
or curses placed on you buy witches. And of course

870
00:55:28.880 --> 00:55:31.760
the urine. It was believed that by putting it down

871
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:34.480
in the ground or wherever, you would cause the said

872
00:55:34.599 --> 00:55:40.719
witch to have extreme pain when urine going to that level.

873
00:55:41.079 --> 00:55:43.679
You know, I don't know why, Oh well, let's make

874
00:55:43.719 --> 00:55:50.559
her hurt when she urine zora. But you know, I

875
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:52.679
thought that was really interesting. And these can still be

876
00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:55.679
found today, especially in New England, but even throughout the country.

877
00:55:56.559 --> 00:55:59.519
So I think there's this kind of horrible thought that

878
00:55:59.559 --> 00:56:01.840
somebody New England maybe living in a home that has

879
00:56:01.880 --> 00:56:04.320
one of these witch bottles embedded in their walls and

880
00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:07.840
they don't even know about it. Soaked cat thing, where

881
00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:11.400
again people were finding dead cats that almost lived, burnt

882
00:56:11.719 --> 00:56:15.199
or smoked to kind of mummify them. And these cats

883
00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:20.360
were placed also into the walls or underground and very

884
00:56:20.400 --> 00:56:24.079
often were found with rodents either in their mouth or

885
00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:26.440
they would be kind of placed in a way whereas

886
00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:30.760
cat chase mouse type of ordeal. And it was believed

887
00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:37.679
or is believed that this type of protection spell or

888
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:42.079
talesman or awarding, whatever you want to call it, of

889
00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:47.239
protecting a person's home or property from rodents. So again

890
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:50.840
another one those really interesting things, that sad thing, especially

891
00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:53.079
for you know, I've got six cats in the house,

892
00:56:53.079 --> 00:56:55.760
so the think of one of them being smoked and

893
00:56:55.760 --> 00:57:02.199
put into walls just a little so little little SCTA, Yeah,

894
00:57:02.199 --> 00:57:02.719
what about you.

895
00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:06.840
I think the biggest thing that I liked about it

896
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:09.320
was the fact that not only did she and I

897
00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:11.599
had mentioned this during the interview, not only did she

898
00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:18.880
do these different evil things throughout the book Archaeology, she

899
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:23.079
talked about stuff that we talked about last episode, which

900
00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:26.280
was Talisman's Charms, those sort of things, But she also

901
00:57:26.679 --> 00:57:31.719
brought up the fact that there's protection as well, and

902
00:57:32.079 --> 00:57:35.239
you know the I thought it was actually really interesting

903
00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:39.079
when she brought up the fact that there are some

904
00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:45.079
psychiatrists right now using an exorcism quote unquote extorcism to

905
00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:49.719
treat patients that are believing that they're possessed. You know,

906
00:57:49.880 --> 00:57:56.800
they're they're using that belief and using this method to

907
00:57:58.360 --> 00:58:00.199
cure them in a sense, or at least treat them.

908
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:03.920
So I thought that was like fascinating. I've never heard

909
00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:07.719
that before. So I definitely recommended the book because it

910
00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:12.239
is very packed full of knowledge and just the fact

911
00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:16.039
that she, like I said, is bringing together science and

912
00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:21.519
religion in a book that is about something that is

913
00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:25.400
still taboo to this day. Even so, I thought it

914
00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:28.159
was a great a great book and a great interview.

915
00:58:28.239 --> 00:58:33.760
So all right, folks, I hope you have enjoyed Evil Archaeology.

916
00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:36.599
Make sure you like to share, subscribe wherever you are,

917
00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:39.639
and check out all the great shows that we have

918
00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:43.159
on United Public Radio Network. Again, this has been a

919
00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:46.760
pre record show for one oh seven one seven point

920
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:50.199
seven FM New Orleans and United Public radio network until

921
00:58:50.239 --> 00:58:53.639
next week where you'll find this same time, same channel.

922
00:58:53.960 --> 00:59:03.000
We'll see you next time when