April 15, 2026

Out-Of-Body Experiences Explained (And Verified?) w/Graham Nicholls

What if your consciousness could leave your body—and come back with proof? This week on ParaTruth: Reborn, we sit down with leading OBE researcher Graham Nicholls to explore the reality behind out-of-body experiences. From his first experience in...

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What if your consciousness could leave your body—and come back with proof?

This week on ParaTruth: Reborn, we sit down with leading OBE researcher Graham Nicholls to explore the reality behind out-of-body experiences. From his first experience in 1987 to participating in controlled research studies, Graham brings a grounded, rational perspective to something often dismissed as fantasy.

Are OBEs hallucinations… or evidence that consciousness exists beyond the physical body?

Tune in and decide for yourself.

Guest Bio: Graham Nicholls is an English author, as well as a lecturer and advisory board member for The Rhine Research Center. He is a leading practitioner and researcher into out-of-body experiences. He had his first OBEs in 1987 and has had some of the most acclaimed verified experiences on record. He has participated in research at The Rhine Research Center, The Institute of Noetic Sciences and has organised and taken part in research with biologist Dr. Rupert Sheldrake. He is the author of Avenues of the Human Spirit and Navigating the Out-of-Body Experience. Graham Nicholls has gained much attention for his rational approach to his abilities and has lectured at venues including Cambridge University, Kings College, The Society for Psychical Research, The International Remote Viewing Association Conference, The London Science Museum, London. Graham Nicholls incredible verified OBEs are also featured in several books by other authors.


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Thanks for listening!

WEBVTT

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Coming up on Paratruth ree Born, I'll be talking to

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Graham Nichols about out of body experiences.

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Welcome, we do parent Truth.

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Truth, what's going on paratruthers. Welcome to another episode of

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Paratruth Reborn. My name is Justin and I am very

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happy to welcome Graham Nichols to the show to talk

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about out of body experiences. Graham, Welcome to Paratruth re Born.

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Hi, thank you, it's good to be here.

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Now what got you started in studying out of body experiences?

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Well, I guess having my own spontaneous experiences when I

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was around eleven or twelve, and then learning to induce

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them a couple of years later.

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So it was kind of.

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It happened naturally to me, and then I wanted to

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understand what the experience was and learn more about it.

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And basically I heard about the concepts. I don't really

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remember where I heard about it. It was maybe an UR

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newspaper or on the television or something, but I heard

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about this concept about body experiences and I had the

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sort of Eureka moment, Oh, that's what happened to me.

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So that began the process of looking into it. And

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read the book on the subject, and then discovered there

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was a teacher in London who was giving a lecture

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around that time as well. So I kind of went

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to his lecture and then became his kind of prodigy,

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I guess, and started working for him on the weekends,

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and so it just became my focus in life, I guess.

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Okay, So I think a lot of people associate out

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a body of experiences with near death experiences. What's the difference.

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I think out of body experiences are a component of

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a near death experience. An out of body experience can

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obviously happen completely independently of a near death experience. Out

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of body experiences can arise from many different states of consciousness,

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whereas a near death experience really is inducing an out

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of body experience because of a cardiac arrest or because

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of a situation where you're very close to death. It's

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not always cardiac arrest, but very very close to a

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sort of death state, and then someone will have an

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out body experience and that and then develop into things

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like going down the tunnel that many people are aware of,

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meeting with loved ones who've passed over, that kind of

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description that we're all sort of familiar with. But yeah,

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so I think the out of body experience is really

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a component of that near death situation. There's even the

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area of shared death experiences, which are less known about,

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and shared death experiences are when someone has an out

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of body experience at the same time as someone else

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is having a near death experience or an actual death

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experience and shares in that process. I had an experience

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like that when I witnessed a plane crash basically the

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people who died in a plane crash, and I found

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myself in this misty, cloud like environment. I witnessed all

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these people in a state of confusion, not really sure

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what was happening to them. I even saw them going

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through their life review and the whole process. And then

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shortly after that experience, I discovered that there had been

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a plane crash in Svalbard, which is an island part

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of Norway, and it was sort of on the news

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the next day or I don't remember exactly when they

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reported it, but after my experience and I realized that

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it was at the same time that I'd had the

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outboody experience, so it all kind of correlated, and the

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description of the people were sort of they were of

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Slavic descent. They were miners going to the island to

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do mining work, and I've literally seen them as kind

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of manual workers, you know, very kind of leathered appearance

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and that kind of thing. So, yeah, that was a

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powerful experience because I could kind of verify it in

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the real world essentially. So that's an example of a

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kind of shared def experience.

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That's that fascinating that you had that experience because I've

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heard of people astro projecting, which is typically considered our

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body experience in a sense, and doing like work on

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the astral plane while they're out of their body. So

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it's fascinating that you had an experience that kind of

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correlates with that. Now, when you had your first experience

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at eleven, what was that experience?

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Like? The very first experiences were quite fleeting. My memory

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of them is quite vague now, but essentially they were

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quite unusual actually because they weren't like most people tend

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to think of coming out of your body, looking back

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at yourself, lying on the bed, that kind of description.

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But it wasn't that at all. Those first experiences. I

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found myself of half a mile from where I actually

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lived near to the school that I went to at

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the time, and I found myself sort of floating vertically

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off the ground, maybe hard to say, half a meter

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something like that. But I was off the ground, and

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I was observing the environment around me, and it was

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hyper vivid, hyper real, you know, it was like I

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was physically there. The only difference was that I was

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off the ground, which obviously wouldn't be a normal scenario.

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So I didn't know what this was. I didn't know

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what I was experiencing. I wasn't asleep, so it wasn't

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like I knew. It wasn't a dream, and I felt

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myself go into this sort of altered state. It was

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sort of like a trance state came over me, which

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is still how I do it now. I don't do

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it from sleep, which is often an assumption people make.

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I don't do it from sleep. I don't do it

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from sleep paralysis. I don't do it from lizard dreams,

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from a like a trance state, basically a conscious waking

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trance state. And yeah, so that's kind of how it happened.

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And I just found myself in that location and was

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obviously surprise startle. Looked around at the environment, and then

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a few moments later I found myself back in my body,

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back in my bedroom. So they were quite brief, kind

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of fleeting experiences, those early ones, but obviously they stayed

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in my memory and I was kind of like, what

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was that. I had no language for it. I didn't

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know what it was until I heard about this concept.

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Out of all the experiences.

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Now, I mean eleven, twelve years old, that's a really

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young age to be having this experience. Was there a

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point that you thought it could be a dream or

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when did you realize that, you know, this is something

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more than just a dream.

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I don't think I really considered them to be dreams, because,

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like I said, I was awake and you know, conscious

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when the state came over me, and it didn't feel

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like a dream in any way. And it's that's still

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the case today, and I've had my EEG observed. Now

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I've done a lot of research with my own kind

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of using neurofeedback and things like that sort of eg

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that sort of thing to look at my own brain states.

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I used that to sort of develop my own sound technology,

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which uses infrasound infeliminal technology.

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So during the process of developing that.

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I did a lot of monitoring of my own brain state,

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monitoring when I was in the vibrational state, which is

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sort of the precursor to a lot of our body experiences.

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One of them, I call them the transitional stages. There

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are others that the void state, for example, that's another

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common one that people have, but the vibrations are the

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most common. And so I sort of observed what was

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going on with my own brain while the vibrations were happening,

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and then sort of developed the sound technology to kind

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of work with those same brain waves and replicate that

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our body state, or the vibrational state anyway. So during

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that process, it was clear that I wasn't having rapid

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eye movement. I wasn't in the kind of brain ways

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that you would associate with sleep or with dreaming. And

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then we have also, you know, more recent science like

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fMRI research that's been done in Canada, for example, that

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where they took a young woman who was a to

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induce our body experiences pretty much consistently, and they put

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her in the from her eye scanner and looked at

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her brain state, and again, she wasn't having the brain

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waves that you would associate with with dreaming, or at

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least the dreaming. So we have quite a bit of

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research that sort of demonstrates that that it's not it's

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not just a dream state.

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Okay, well, and I mean just like the near death experiences.

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I mean, if you can describe something that's in the

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room next door, you hadn't been in that room before,

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and you're taking part in an experiment like that, I

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assume that you're not dreaming. So I completely get that.

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But from you know, from a young child's perspective, it

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I almost wonder if it ever felt like a dream

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to you, But obviously it didn't. So trying to tell

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people this from you know, from that young of an age.

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How did people react to that?

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I don't really remember too much about how they reacted.

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I guess it was more when I started learning to

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induce them myself, which was about fourteen, and when I

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was working with the teacher, my sort of mentor, Douglas Baker,

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when that process began. That was when I started talking

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about it more. I guess some people were superstitious about it.

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A lot of people have unfounded fears and things about

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the experience, So there was that some people that were

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just you know, skeptical, but not in an engaging way.

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They would just be like, oh, I don't really believe

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in that. And that was as far as the conversation went.

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So it wasn't like it was sort of like a

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big debate or anything like that. It was just, you know,

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it was either disinterest or superstition or genuine interest. Those

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were the sort of three responses I had. I guess

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my parents were interested in a sort of it's not

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my thing, but it's interesting kind of That was sort

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of their attitude towards it. I guess, Okay, now, something

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that I've always wanted to try as actual projector even

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have our body experience or even.

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Stuff like that. But one of my biggest fears has

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always been not wanting to come back or getting separated

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from my body. Is that a possibility, I don't think so.

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I've not really come across any real evidence that that's really.

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A genuine concern.

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I mean, most people, you know, in the in the

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teaching I do, when I work sort of private tuition

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with students and things like that, a lot of the

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focus is on staying out longer. It's not on it's

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not on like whether they'll come back or not, because

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most experiences when you're learning, the first experiences tend to

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be shorter, and then as you develop, as the whole

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process gets kind of deeper, it sort of starts to

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get to around twenty minutes seems to be about the

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average experience with people. So it's not like it's a

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really long experience or like this really any issue with

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getting back to the body. I think being in the

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body is sort of your default state, if you like so,

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I think I think it's more like your brain, your

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mind wants to kind of click back into its normal

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state of being. But then we can get into the

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whole philosophical perspective of is it actually taking place in

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the sense of something leaving the body, like a soul

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or a spirit or anything like that. I tend to

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think it's more like an extended consciousness that you're sending

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some aspect of yourself, some perceptual part of yourself to

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another location, rather than like a literal sort of spirit

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body or.

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Something like that.

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So when you look at it in that more modern context,

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I think then the idea of being inside or outside

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starts to break down a little bit as well. There's

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the whole idea. You know a lot of ideas about

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like is consciousness even based in the brain, or is

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it just is it like a field around us? Is

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it sort of extended so we're almost like a node

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on a bigger network. So there's lots of possibilities for

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how the experience might take place. So I don't think

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that's really anything to worry about.

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Well, I'm glad you explain it like that, because then

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it kind of makes me think of like remote viewing

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or you know, like a telepathic experience, stuff like that

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over your spirit or soul or whatever you want to

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think about it, leaving your body.

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Yeah, well I see it like I mean, I don't.

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With all of this work, I tend to take the

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approach of I'm always open to learning new things and

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seeing what the truth might be. I'm definitely not a

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person who's into dogma and saying, oh, this is how

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it is and I've worked it all out. I tend

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to shy away from people like that. I'm kind of right,

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you know, I'm never convinced by that kind of thing,

235
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because although it maybe sounds good in a kind of

236
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sales pitch kind of way, I don't think it really

237
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I don't think it's really true that anyone can say

238
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they've worked these things out. I think it's far more

239
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:04.039
exciting in a way to be open and say, well,

240
00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:06.720
we don't really know how it works, and there's these

241
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:11.240
little clues and hints, and we're kind of developing more understanding,

242
00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:13.240
and that's what I try to do. That's why I'm

243
00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.840
quite interested in being involved in the science. And I

244
00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:20.600
think pretty much the only author, the only person in

245
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:24.240
this field who's also doing science and taking part in

246
00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:29.120
experiments and that kind of thing. And part of the

247
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.440
reason for that is because I really believe in the

248
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more we understand the experience, the better we'll be able

249
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to induce the experience and to teach people how to

250
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.080
do it, and also the more likely it will be

251
00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.320
that it will be taken more seriously and people will,

252
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.960
you know, start to see that there is something valid

253
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.679
in this experience for sure.

254
00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:56.600
Well, and you know, anybody who cause themselves and quote

255
00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:00.080
a quote expert in anything that has to do with

256
00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:05.359
paranormal supernatural stuff, it's like, well, are you an expert though,

257
00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:10.680
because there's a lot that is still unexplained, and if

258
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:13.599
you're an expert, you should be able to explain anything

259
00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:17.759
that has to do with what you're talking about.

260
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.440
Well, to some degree, I think expertise can be that

261
00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:27.599
you have a full knowledge of the current available information,

262
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:31.640
the current available knowledge, you know, because it's I guess

263
00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:35.079
with everything, it's all you know, it's only to the

264
00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:38.000
level that we currently understand it. It's like with medical

265
00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:42.279
science or something. You know, someone can be an expert

266
00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.599
in brain and science, but they're an expert in our

267
00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.319
current understanding of brain science. So I guess it's sort

268
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of but you know, who knows. Twenty years time, the

269
00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:58.799
field might be completely completely transformed. So but that's exciting

270
00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:01.359
to me because I am, you know, I'm really interested

271
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:06.680
in all these interesting aspects of the experience. For example,

272
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:09.440
I'm very interested in the visual perception in obe s

273
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:13.759
because you're talking about seeing things in another room or whatever. Well,

274
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:16.319
in order to do that and understand that, we need

275
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:20.160
to understand how vision works in an hour body experience.

276
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Often it's just assumed that it's exactly the same as

277
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it is in any other, you know, situation, like in

278
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normal everyday life.

279
00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:32.200
But of course, why would it.

280
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Be like that you're in a completely different, altered state

281
00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:38.440
of consciousness You're perceiving things in a completely different way,

282
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so why would vision work in the same way. And

283
00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:45.640
we have all these clues, like, for example, the cerulean state,

284
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:48.240
as I call it, which is this sort of blue

285
00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:53.559
gray state of vision that I've had in several of

286
00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:59.279
my verified witnessed experiences, especially my sort of most famous,

287
00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:02.480
the sort of so Ho pre cognitive experience that I had,

288
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.240
where I witnessed I was in a room with four

289
00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:09.839
other people teaching them the g technique, which is one

290
00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:12.240
of the methods I used to induce an out of

291
00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:17.440
body experience, and I went into quite a deep chance state,

292
00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:23.200
went out of body, found myself in Soho in central London,

293
00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:28.480
and I witnessed a bombing an explosion coming out from

294
00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:32.079
a pub a bar at the far end of the street.

295
00:19:32.559 --> 00:19:36.680
And then told everyone in the room.

296
00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:39.160
What I perceived and that I felt that this was

297
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:44.039
a precognitive experience. It was one of the deepest experiences

298
00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:47.160
I've ever had. Several of the people there had to

299
00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:50.200
sort of try and coax me back to consciousness because

300
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:52.920
I was very very deep in this sort of altered state.

301
00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:57.200
But when I did come back to the room, I

302
00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:01.839
described everything that happened, and then fire days later there

303
00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.480
was a bombing in that exact street, in a bar

304
00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:09.960
in the location that I said. If people are interested,

305
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:13.799
there's a video with one of the witnesses describing it

306
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:18.079
as well. You can on my website or on YouTube.

307
00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:19.920
So yeah, that was.

308
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:24.839
It's a very unique experience because it was precognitive. It

309
00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:27.880
was witnessed as I had the outbu the experience, and

310
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all of the details were verified.

311
00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:36.960
So so doing this it's not just like in present time.

312
00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:42.319
Because you mentioned precognition, you can have a out of

313
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:45.519
body experience and be experiencing stuff in other parts of time.

314
00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:51.559
Then yeah, I mean I didn't intentionally go into you know,

315
00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:54.559
I struggled with the whole idea of precognition.

316
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:55.279
I still do.

317
00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:59.799
I think, you know, the whole idea of seeing something

318
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.640
for it happens is quite counterintuitive. I guess it's a

319
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:09.000
difficult thing to get your head round, right, So yeah,

320
00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:14.720
I struggled with that concept. But I had this strong

321
00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:19.839
intuitive feeling that what I'd seen was not happening right now,

322
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:23.880
but was a pre cognitive experience, and I said that

323
00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:27.039
at the time to the people in the room. So

324
00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:31.559
it was you know it was. It was very unusual

325
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:33.680
for me. So it's not something that I would say

326
00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:38.000
I do. I don't sort of look to go sort

327
00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:40.720
of to the future or anything like that, particularly in

328
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.920
my experiences. But I've had I've had probably three pre

329
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:50.759
cognitive experiences, so it's not a common feature. But that

330
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:55.359
was interesting because it was probably my most powerful outbody

331
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.839
experience and it was also pre cognitive, and it was

332
00:21:57.880 --> 00:21:58.759
also witnessed.

333
00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:06.039
So now, can anybody do this or learn how to

334
00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:06.400
do this?

335
00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:12.359
I think within reason, yeah, I mean with my private

336
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:17.599
tuition and courses and things that I teach, I think

337
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:22.359
most people, most people can get to a sort of

338
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:27.640
reasonable level if they if they do it consistently. That's

339
00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:31.720
really the key, the big mistake. This is a really

340
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:34.119
good piece of advice because the big mistake that most

341
00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.440
people make is that they jump from technique to technique,

342
00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:40.880
and I think with OBEs it's a bit like muscle memory.

343
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.279
You need to consistently do the practice, even if it

344
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:48.839
becomes tedious, even if you feel like you're not making progress,

345
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.519
you have to kind of stick with it and be

346
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.480
consistent with the technique. When I learned to induce my

347
00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:00.400
own experiences I just had one basic technique that i'd

348
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:04.599
read in this book by Genetly Mitchell, a parapsychologist, and

349
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:09.200
I just did that technique relentlessly because it was the

350
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.759
only one I had, and I think that was actually

351
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:16.160
part of why I ended up being successful. But it

352
00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:19.880
did take six months for me to get to that point,

353
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:25.039
even though I'd had a few spontaneous experiences already. So

354
00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:28.119
I think there's a yeah, there's a degree of kind

355
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:29.519
of persistence with it.

356
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:32.160
But I think, like with most.

357
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:36.240
Things, like with playing a musical instrument or learning a

358
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:40.599
language or something like that, I think it comes down

359
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:43.880
to who's going to be persistent and he's going to

360
00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:48.200
kind of keep going when maybe the initial excitement has

361
00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:52.599
worn off and keep going with the process. But what,

362
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:54.359
like I said, what a lot of people do is

363
00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:56.880
they'll sort of they're looking for this sort of wonder

364
00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:02.359
technique and really there there isn't one. The biggest key

365
00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:06.000
is that consistency, and then on top of that, it's

366
00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:06.839
the pre state.

367
00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:08.680
That's what I always advise.

368
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:12.039
People, Like in my teaching with people, I always focus

369
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:15.079
on teaching them how to get to the pre state

370
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:17.920
for the outbody experience. What I mean by the pre

371
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:20.680
state is kind of like the altered state that I

372
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:23.920
talked about, being in that sort of deep state, so

373
00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:28.640
that you can initiate the outbody experience from that. Because again,

374
00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:31.559
what a lot of people do is they learn a technique,

375
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.759
say online, they look up a technique, and then they

376
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:38.359
try to apply that technique without being in a sort

377
00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:41.839
of altered state to start with, or they just try

378
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:45.119
to do they try to get into sleep paralysis or

379
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:49.519
something like that. And that's not the greatest either, because

380
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:53.720
sleep paralysis is for most people are very negative, scary,

381
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:58.599
unpleasant experience. So it's not really the way that I

382
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:04.039
would recommend for most people. Unless you have it naturally

383
00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:07.119
all the time or something, then obviously yes, utilize it,

384
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:10.400
but I don't think it's particularly something to look for

385
00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:13.960
because it's you know, it's a very unpleasant experience to

386
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:17.839
have really for most people. So so yeah, I guess

387
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.319
another approach I take is to try and cater the

388
00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:26.599
methodologies the techniques to the individual, because I think sometimes,

389
00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:31.000
for example, people will give someone a visualization method and

390
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:33.680
maybe that person is no good at visualizing, maybe they

391
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:38.200
can't visualize, so that's not very good or They'll give

392
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:42.400
someone a lucid dream method and that person never remembers

393
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:45.480
their dreams, even so, how are they going to get lucid?

394
00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:48.440
So it's about.

395
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:53.200
Applying the right methodology, the right approaches for the individual.

396
00:25:54.400 --> 00:26:01.279
Okay, now, when you're starting to induce this state of consciousness,

397
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:04.279
is there like a type of meditation involved or how

398
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:07.319
does that usually work when you're starting to go into

399
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:08.039
an obe.

400
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:13.119
It's a bit more complicated than the type of meditation

401
00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:15.319
I would say. I would say there's sort of different

402
00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:19.079
components to it. Like I mentioned the sound technology I use,

403
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:23.319
which is not binormal beats. A lot of people, you know,

404
00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:28.400
assume it's binural beats, but I literally developed infraliminal sound

405
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:33.079
because I didn't find binural beats very effective for me.

406
00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:35.400
So I started to look.

407
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:39.279
Into alternatives, and then I looked into infrasound, and then

408
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:43.359
also looked into hypnotic suggestion and things like that. So

409
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:46.759
basically I sort of combined the two together and developed

410
00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:49.839
that sound technology. And it was also based on the

411
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.839
vibrational state. When I'm in the vibrational state, trying to

412
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:57.920
sort of replicate that, So that's something I use to

413
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:03.640
get me to that different state of awareness. I also

414
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:10.240
will use things like sensory deprivation. I also work with breathings.

415
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:14.799
So the G technique is a combination of breathing techniques

416
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:20.440
and physical sort of physical muscle tension and things like that.

417
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:27.079
So it's essentially creating a complete physiological shift into a

418
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:31.640
different state that then facilitates the out of body experience.

419
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:36.920
So there's a sort of meditational component within all of that,

420
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:39.960
but it's you know, it needs to have the complete

421
00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:44.079
sort of holistic package, i'd say to be most effective.

422
00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:50.160
Gotcha, Now, what kind of research and experiments have you

423
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:53.559
done in doing all of this and.

424
00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:57.000
Working with OBUs.

425
00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:59.920
You mean in a science context.

426
00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:04.960
With yeah, like like you mentioned, bring scans and stuff

427
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.799
like that to verify that you're not in a sleeping steed.

428
00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:12.640
Oh okay, Well most of that was done when I

429
00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:16.880
was developing the infraliminal sound using neuro feedback, so had

430
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:21.720
sort of like the EEG system and so it was giving.

431
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.000
So then while I was in the EG, I would

432
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.160
or the nearer feedback because it's sort of on a

433
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:32.200
computer system, so you get like a visual representation of

434
00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:37.319
what's going on in your own head basically, so I

435
00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:41.039
would use that and I would go into the vibrational

436
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:44.759
state initially, and so then we could see the different

437
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:47.880
sort of patterns that were coming up, and you know,

438
00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:52.279
logging all of that information and then from there sort

439
00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:53.240
of going into.

440
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:54.240
The out body experience.

441
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:58.839
So there was that, then there was also and the

442
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:02.279
brain state was notistant with sleep or dreaming, and there

443
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:05.519
was no rim either. So I've been observed quite a

444
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:10.160
lot while out of body, and my breathing doesn't become

445
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.880
how you would normally, you know, associate someone with being asleep.

446
00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:16.480
I mean, most of us know what it looks like

447
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:20.680
when somebody's asleep. They're breathing changes there. You know, their

448
00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:25.680
muscle tension and things like that changes that. It's very

449
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:29.759
sort of clear when someone's asleep. So none of that

450
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:38.680
is present. My pulse goes very low. Oxygenation can shift

451
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:42.400
as well, which is interesting. I often I've got sort

452
00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:45.319
of a sensory deprivation room in my home here that

453
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.519
I use from my practice a lot, and I have

454
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:51.640
a pulse oximeter in there which sort of monitors my

455
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:55.559
oxygen levels and my pulse rate and things like that.

456
00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:58.200
So I try to monitor as much as I can

457
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:02.160
on a on a consistent level, and when people you

458
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:06.400
know are around, they sort of can. My my ex partner,

459
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:10.119
for example, she observed me quite often and you know,

460
00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:13.839
was was clear that it was different when I was

461
00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:16.599
in an auburty experience too, when I was asleep, So.

462
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:17.480
Things like that.

463
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:23.279
And then I've taken part in scientific research, but that's

464
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:28.799
more to do with psychic perceptions. So I've done precognition

465
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:32.880
experiments with Rupert ChIL Drake got the highest score he'd

466
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:39.240
ever seen in that. I've also done telepathy experiments with

467
00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:45.960
Rupert Schildrake using telephone telepathy. So you get a phone

468
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:50.400
call and you have to select using a numb like

469
00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:53.680
on the keypad. You have to select who you believe

470
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:57.359
is calling you, but you know, up until that point

471
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:00.319
the call is not actually connected. But once you make

472
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.440
the selection and it connects and you see if you're

473
00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:06.440
right or wrong. So that that's sort of telephone telepathy experiments.

474
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.920
So I organized some of those experiments as well as

475
00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:17.680
took part in them. Then I also did micropsychokinesis experiments

476
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:21.319
with Dean Raiding at the Institute of Noteic Sciences in

477
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:26.720
the US, So that's literally trying to affect things on

478
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.599
a quantum level. They headed interferometer, which is basically what

479
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:34.319
they use for the double slit experiments. It's firing photons

480
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.759
through the double slits and psychically or in a kind

481
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:41.880
of a shielded Faraday room. It's sort of like a

482
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:46.000
steel box essentially, almost like a yeah, just like a

483
00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:50.000
kind of steel box, like a kind of industrial refrigerator.

484
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:51.759
It looks like it's got like a big sort of

485
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:54.079
hand or on the door and stuff. Okay, but they

486
00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:56.440
put you in there and then you have to try

487
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:02.960
and psychically influence the doubles flit experiment. So we've got

488
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:07.279
positive results in that, and Dean Raiding has replicated that

489
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:11.680
experiment now in sort of multiple himself, and also it's

490
00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:16.839
been done in other institutions, and most recently, I've been

491
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:21.000
working with the Ryan Research Center for probably over a

492
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:27.000
decade now, and one of the projects we've done was

493
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:32.240
a fourteen week more like the classic thing that you

494
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:35.960
might think sort of like remote viewing or out of

495
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:41.519
body experiences to perceive targets. So sometimes he used remote viewing,

496
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:44.759
sometimes he used out of body experiences. The targets were

497
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:47.039
set up in the US. At the time, I was

498
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:50.279
living in Estonia. So all I was sent was an

499
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:55.359
email to say that there was a new target or

500
00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:59.440
whatever was being selected, and then I had to try

501
00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:05.519
and see the target from Estonia. And interestingly, the out

502
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:10.000
of body experienced ones where I tried to proceed the

503
00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:13.119
target while in an outbody experience, those were the ones

504
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:17.400
that were most accurate. But overall it was statistically significant

505
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:21.839
and we had positive results. So all the experiments I've

506
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:26.880
done have been statistically significant of a positive. So, yeah,

507
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.599
those are the main ones I've done.

508
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:35.240
Now, has there ever been an experience that was kind

509
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:39.079
of and this is gonna sound weird, outside the norm

510
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:41.880
of your normal orbe experiences?

511
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:47.119
Can you be a bit more What do you mean

512
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:48.279
by outside the norm?

513
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:53.400
Like you, for example, you had an out of body

514
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:59.039
experience on another planet or in a astral projective state,

515
00:33:59.240 --> 00:33:59.920
stuff like that.

516
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:07.759
Well, I've I've had experiences on other levels like the

517
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:12.119
one I mentioned with the you know, the shared death experience.

518
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:16.559
I've had a lot on those other levels. But I guess,

519
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.159
I guess I'm always a bit cautious with that because

520
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:27.239
it's it's tricky too, I guess to say, how objective,

521
00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:32.400
how definite, those kinds of experiences are. And in the

522
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:36.840
many decades that I've sort of been exploring this, I've

523
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:40.480
seen this tendency that I guess most people have, most

524
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.239
humans have, me included. I'm not separating myself in that

525
00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:47.800
sense to to kind of get caught in your own

526
00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:52.719
interpretation of things. And I guess going back to that

527
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.679
sort of that I like to keep an open mind

528
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:59.960
and open perception. I try not to sort of assume

529
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:03.360
and what it is that I'm seeing, so I tend

530
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:06.719
to be more cautious about those kinds of experiences. But

531
00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:11.320
in terms of planets and that kind of stuff, I've

532
00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:14.599
had a few experiences actually, one that was kind of

533
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:19.400
semi verified as well, where I initially thought I was

534
00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:23.760
moving over the surface of the moon, our local moon, okay,

535
00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:28.320
and it had all the sort of craters and looked

536
00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:31.400
gray and you know, everything like I would expect of

537
00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:36.119
the moon. But then I came upon this distinctive ridge

538
00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:40.880
running through the moon that was sort of greenish, and

539
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:43.840
you know, it was quite prominent, like right across the

540
00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:47.599
surface of the moon. And that was really interesting because

541
00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:51.880
I was like, well, this isn't this obviously isn't local moon.

542
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.400
This is obviously somewhere else, so kind of where am I?

543
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:57.039
So I tried to.

544
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:01.000
Try to sort of not to you like, as much

545
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:04.679
as I could about the environment. And then afterwards I

546
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:08.000
went online and I typed in all of the details

547
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:10.760
that I was able to perceive, the main one being

548
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:15.480
the ridge, and to my surprise, a moon came up

549
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:18.599
that matched all the criteria, all the things I perceived

550
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:22.840
that I perceived, which was Ipetus, which is one of

551
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.039
the I think it's the third largest moon of Saturn.

552
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:27.199
OK.

553
00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:33.599
So, yeah, that was That was a really interesting experience

554
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.760
because it was kind of somewhat verified. I mean, obviously

555
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:40.320
it could have been wrong, but it seemed to match

556
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:42.960
in every way what I perceived in the experience.

557
00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:48.440
Right now, have you ever had an experience there that

558
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:54.800
frightened you or startled you in any way?

559
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:55.679
Not?

560
00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:59.239
Not really, I mean only I guess the you know,

561
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:05.440
the experience was startling. It was somewhat scary because it

562
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:10.079
was a it was a you know, a horrible experience

563
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:14.199
that was happening to the people in that situation. But

564
00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:18.119
other than that, no, I haven't because I don't do

565
00:37:18.199 --> 00:37:21.880
it via sleep proalysis, for example, I don't tend to

566
00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:24.800
have if you do it that way, there's all the

567
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:27.280
kind of sleep paralysis is associated with, you know, the

568
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:31.039
cron and the you know, these sort of little creatures

569
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:33.880
and things like that. It's more than which I don't

570
00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:37.320
think are objectively real. I think they're hallucinations. I think

571
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.960
they're part of your dreaming mind, you know, when you're

572
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:44.159
in that paralyzed state, so you're having kind of like

573
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:46.519
a waking night there. So if you don't do it

574
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:50.280
in that way, then you don't perceive those things essentially,

575
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:54.199
so you don't have those kinds of experiences. So yeah,

576
00:37:54.679 --> 00:37:58.880
I haven't, and my students haven't either, so so yeah,

577
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:02.280
so I think quite the opposite. Really, most of the

578
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:06.360
experiences are very life affirming and powerful.

579
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:13.079
Okay now, and that's same note, and you kind of

580
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:17.480
already addressed it. But can it'll be easy be dangerous

581
00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:18.360
in any way at all?

582
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:21.440
I don't think so.

583
00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.760
I can't think of any way that they can be really,

584
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:27.559
I mean, I guess the only thing.

585
00:38:28.039 --> 00:38:29.440
I think it's more the opposite.

586
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:33.079
It's strange to me that we focus on this sort

587
00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:36.280
of idea in a way, because I think the benefits

588
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:41.559
vastly outweigh this sort of myth that there's any kind

589
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:46.599
of danger or negativity. I think all of that comes

590
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:48.800
from sleep broalysis. I think all of that kind of

591
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:52.119
fear and like, oh that there's there could be something

592
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:56.400
harmful comes from people having sleep brossis experiences and mixing

593
00:38:56.440 --> 00:39:00.480
them up with our body experiences. So I think it's

594
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:03.519
really because they're having a waking nightmare, so they're like, oh,

595
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:06.840
you know, this is a dangerous thing or whatever. But

596
00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:09.480
if you don't do it in that way, you're not

597
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:11.920
going to have those kinds of experiences, and you're probably

598
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:14.360
not going to have the fears and that kind of thing.

599
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:18.119
So yeah, I mean I did quite a deep dive

600
00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:23.840
for several years looking for any real cases because I

601
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.760
felt that it was my responsibility, if I'm going to

602
00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:29.320
teach this thing and I'm going to write books on

603
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:30.920
it and that kind of thing.

604
00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:33.039
To do a real deep dive.

605
00:39:33.159 --> 00:39:39.960
So I looked into various traditions from voodoo, Santaria, condomble.

606
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:45.480
I looked into Goetia, I looked into the Lemma Gatton,

607
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:51.079
all this sort of demonology stuff. Some of the early cases,

608
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:53.800
like the case that the film The Exorcist was based on.

609
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:56.960
I looked into all this kind of stuff. Looking for

610
00:39:57.159 --> 00:40:01.400
examples of something where there was a new in harm

611
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:05.039
or negative outcome, and I found nothing that was convincing.

612
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:10.000
I found like people having a scary experience that was

613
00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:13.719
essentially no worse than they'd had a nightmare. But again,

614
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:18.800
ninety nine percent of the time it was a sleep

615
00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:22.920
paralysis related experience. When someone described something where they were

616
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:26.559
scared or whatever, but still nothing harmful happened to them.

617
00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:32.159
So yeah, so I've not found anything that sort of

618
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:35.840
convinces me. But obviously people are entitled to their beliefs.

619
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:39.880
If they if they feel, based on religion or something,

620
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:43.679
that there's some harm, then obviously they should go with

621
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:47.559
what they feel is correct. I just but I can

622
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:50.559
say that after you know doing this, I'm in my

623
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:54.280
fifties now and I started doing this at like eleven twelve.

624
00:40:55.960 --> 00:40:59.599
I've had no negative outcomes. I've only seen the positives,

625
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.360
which it seems to have a healing aspect to it.

626
00:41:02.360 --> 00:41:06.639
It can be very beneficial, it can be very interconnecting,

627
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:09.239
make you feel more connected with the world around you.

628
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:11.519
It can it can kind of give you a sense

629
00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:15.519
of freedom. I think out of body experiences are the

630
00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:20.360
core component of shamanism for example, because the very definition

631
00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:23.400
of shamanism is to go out of body to bring

632
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:28.199
back healing for the group or the tribe. So it's

633
00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:31.719
literally and our body experience is a part of shamanic tradition.

634
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:38.239
There are I'm working with a Sami chaman at the moment,

635
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:43.000
and within his culture there is the use of the

636
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.840
drum to go into an altered state, then to go

637
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:48.840
out of body and to travel, and there's a there's

638
00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:52.960
a long tradition in that culture from the far north

639
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:57.320
of Europe of of going out of body for you know,

640
00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:03.400
spiritual healing and progression, and it can it's also you know,

641
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:05.760
you can see it in other traditions as well, this

642
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:09.440
kind of idea of going out of body in a

643
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:13.039
sort of positive context. So so yeah, I think I

644
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:17.239
think really, as far as I've experienced, it's it's more

645
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:22.039
of a beneficial, positive, transformative healing experience.

646
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:27.519
Okay, Now, are there any other any other myths that

647
00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:30.119
people get wrong when it comes to out of about

648
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:31.199
the experiences.

649
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:37.079
Maybe just the whole focus on on energy bodies and

650
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:39.719
things like that, I think that's really common one. And

651
00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:44.639
silver cords, you know, all that kind of thing. While

652
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:48.679
a certain percentage of people do experience a silver cord,

653
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:52.360
it's very low. It's sort of in the in my research,

654
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:57.159
it's more like one percent. Carlo Salva Doo's research is

655
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:02.440
probably the unfortunately he's passed away now, but when he

656
00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:05.519
was alive, his research was probably the most extensive in

657
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:10.480
terms of scientifically collating data and then looking at the

658
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:16.320
experience and seeing what people actually experience. And in his

659
00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:19.280
research he found between five and sort of ten percent

660
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:23.320
of people might experience a silver cord. But then interestingly,

661
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:28.000
so the majority don't. But then interestingly, also with the body,

662
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:31.840
the whole idea of having a second body, the vast

663
00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:35.440
majority don't have a second body. As well, the majority

664
00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:40.440
of people, seventy percent of people experience a traveling awareness

665
00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:43.719
or a traveling consciousness or being some kind of sphere

666
00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:48.280
of awareness, sphere of energy, something like that, rather than

667
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:54.039
a body. So again that's the sort of common misconception

668
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:57.880
that people expect. It's that it's an astral body and

669
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.880
all that kind of thing. But this all comes from

670
00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:04.119
what I call the theosophical model, which was really put

671
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:07.519
forward by the Theosophical Society and the sort of eighteen

672
00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:11.599
hundreds and onwards where they would talk about that there's

673
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.280
an etheris body and then there's an astral body and

674
00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:17.800
a mental body in a cause or body, and you know,

675
00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:22.719
different models go to different numbers of bodies, but they

676
00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:27.559
get usually around seven different bodies, whereas in New Age

677
00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:31.159
literature it's sort of been refined down to maybe three,

678
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:34.920
predominantly the etheric and the astral.

679
00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:38.639
But yeah, it's kind of.

680
00:44:40.360 --> 00:44:44.760
I think it's an outdated model now. I think we've

681
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:49.159
got a much more exciting way to look at it

682
00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:53.760
now because we were looking at these ideas around extended consciousness,

683
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:59.159
expanded consciousness and that, you know, these ideas of models

684
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:04.079
body just sort of limit how we can understand and

685
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:05.280
explore the experience.

686
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:05.719
I think.

687
00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:15.199
Okay, now, have your experiences kind of said anything to

688
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:18.199
you about life after death, like solidifying that there is

689
00:45:18.280 --> 00:45:21.440
something outside of this physical experience?

690
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:26.039
I think so, yeah, I think.

691
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.480
I think at the very least there's some form of

692
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:34.039
continuation of consciousness seems to be the case, when you know,

693
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:40.760
from my own shared the experience through to reincarnation memories

694
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:45.199
in children, but also in my own experiences encounters with

695
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:51.199
what seemed to be spirits or consciousnesses that have passed on,

696
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:59.119
perceiving different environments that seem to be consistent with an afterlife,

697
00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:02.159
like this sort of summer lands that are talked about

698
00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:06.559
in quite a few different context different traditions and things.

699
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:10.079
I've experienced those kinds of environments that seem to be

700
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:17.079
some kind of consensus reality where many people's perceptions have

701
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:19.719
sort of fed into it and it's created a sort

702
00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:24.480
of almost like an artificial idealized Earth in a way.

703
00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:28.840
That kind of thing seems to have a sort of

704
00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:33.840
objectivity to it. But again it's once you get the

705
00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:36.639
sort of further you go into those levels, the harder

706
00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:40.440
it is to remain objective and to kind of really

707
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:43.880
know for sure. But I would say that the evidence

708
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:48.840
definitely leans heavily in that direction from multiple sources, so

709
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:52.559
from out body experiences, from near DIIF experiences, from shared

710
00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:57.519
IF experiences, from past life memories and children, you know,

711
00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:02.119
mediumship research like the research of Julie Bishare at the

712
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:07.000
Wingdbridge Institute, you know, different things like that, it all

713
00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:11.280
converges together to all point towards some kind of continuation,

714
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:16.199
and also apparitions and things like that. I saw the

715
00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:19.400
first sort of paranormal experience that ever happened to me

716
00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:25.039
was perceiving an apparition when I was about five, standing

717
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.800
in the doorway of the Tower Block apartment block that

718
00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:35.119
I grew up in, and you know, that in itself,

719
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:39.199
I think opened me up to the possibility that there

720
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:43.400
was more going on. And then I've had other I guess,

721
00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:47.639
ghost stroke, apparition, whatever you want to call it type

722
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:51.719
experiences since then, including when I lived in Tallinn, which

723
00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:56.119
is very historical place, very medieval. I lived in the

724
00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:58.599
old town of Talinn for ten years, so it was

725
00:47:58.639 --> 00:48:03.159
a very you know, full of history. One of the

726
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:08.239
streets that I lived on, mariva Hare Street is essentially

727
00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:12.360
known to have what they call an energy pillar, which

728
00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:16.599
is sort of I guess, something akin to a kind

729
00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:21.119
of lay line or Earth energy line, that kind of idea.

730
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:25.280
But so that was on the street that I lived on,

731
00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:31.239
and there was also kind of different ideas about presences

732
00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:35.440
and entities and things like that that people had perceived

733
00:48:35.480 --> 00:48:39.000
over the years in that kind of area, and I

734
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:41.440
saw the I saw the apparition of a young woman

735
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:45.840
in that in that house when I lived there.

736
00:48:47.960 --> 00:48:49.559
One possibility also when I.

737
00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:54.119
Lived in in Brighton, on the coast in England. I

738
00:48:54.280 --> 00:49:02.239
also perceive a these sort of shadow figures, uh on

739
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:06.280
several occasions, and my partner at the time also perceived

740
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:10.360
them in that in that house, and we did find

741
00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:15.719
that possibly there there was a family that potentially died.

742
00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:18.920
And I say family because it's kind of important because

743
00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:23.400
it seemed to be adults to maybe two adults and

744
00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:27.199
then two children, because there was sort of two small

745
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:32.880
different Yeah, yeah, in the shadow figures. And one night

746
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:35.639
I woke up and I literally sat up in my

747
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:38.280
bed out of nowhere, just woke up, sat straight up,

748
00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:41.480
looked at the doorway, and I saw these two figures,

749
00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:44.599
you know, and they sort of drifted out of the doorway.

750
00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:50.039
So so, yeah, so I've had I've had experiences like

751
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:52.079
that as well that also feed.

752
00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:53.559
Into the whole area.

753
00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:56.800
I wrote about all of that in my first book,

754
00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:00.360
Navigating the Hour Body Experience. Sorry that's my second, but

755
00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:02.760
the first book, Avenues of the Human Spirit, I wrote

756
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:05.119
about those kinds of experiences.

757
00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:12.320
Yeah, okay, Now, is there anything that you still don't

758
00:50:12.360 --> 00:50:16.000
have answers for when it comes to this work.

759
00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:18.880
I think there's there's lots of things we don't have

760
00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:21.239
answers for and I you know, I don't think anyone

761
00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:26.239
has answers for I mean, I think what I've probably

762
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:29.679
what I what I'm most confident about and want have

763
00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:33.159
developed the most knowledge of in the sense that we

764
00:50:33.239 --> 00:50:36.880
can be confident of it is the techniques and the

765
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:42.000
methodologies and how to sort of induce the experiences. In

766
00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:45.840
terms of what exactly the experience is, that's a lot

767
00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:50.960
more tricky to understand because there's different levels to it

768
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:53.559
as well. Because even if we define in that boody experience,

769
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:56.960
there's what it feels like to the individual, what it

770
00:50:57.000 --> 00:50:59.719
feels like to me when I have that experience, that's

771
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:03.039
one level. Then there's also what might actually be going

772
00:51:03.079 --> 00:51:06.159
on in more of a scientific sense. That's a completely

773
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:09.880
different level. Because the two don't really match up. They

774
00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:13.880
seem to have a they seem to be quite distinct.

775
00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:17.679
So it seems it seems like we're dealing with a

776
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:25.199
partly psychological construct type experience and then a partly something

777
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:30.760
non physical, something beyond the brain, something that's sort of

778
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:33.840
to do with the extended mind, or maybe quantum mechanics,

779
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:37.239
something like that. There's various scientists who put forward that

780
00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:41.679
idea like so Roger Penrose or Brian Josephson who won

781
00:51:41.719 --> 00:51:46.039
the Nobel Prize for physics, he thinks psychic abilities are

782
00:51:46.119 --> 00:51:49.119
probably to do with entanglements. So that's kind of the

783
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:52.679
most popular idea for how it might all be working.

784
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:57.159
But we don't really know. So there's a lot there's

785
00:51:57.199 --> 00:52:00.960
a lot still unknown about the experience. But yeah, the

786
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:05.400
things we can be confident about are we understand the

787
00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:12.280
mechanisms for inducing the experience quite well. Now, we understand

788
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:18.159
maybe the limits of what's possible within the experience, at

789
00:52:18.280 --> 00:52:22.360
least in terms of scientific research. You know, we know,

790
00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:27.760
we know kind of how how powerful the experience can be,

791
00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:31.840
and we know like what can't really be done or

792
00:52:31.880 --> 00:52:34.519
at least has never been demonstrated so far, so if

793
00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:36.400
it can be done, it's very very rare.

794
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:38.920
So that kind of things.

795
00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:45.199
So yeah, okay, now, is what is your hope that

796
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:48.440
people take away from your work?

797
00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:52.599
I think I want, you know, ultimately, I want them

798
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:56.599
to have their own experiences. You know, I think I

799
00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:00.159
don't want it to be about me primarily. I mean,

800
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:05.199
I've seen my experiences and sharing what what what I've done,

801
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:08.280
and you know, by doing the scientific experiments and things

802
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:12.440
like that. I hope that it gives people more of

803
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:18.559
a sense of confidence that these things are possible, because

804
00:53:18.559 --> 00:53:21.039
obviously there's a lot of people who are just saying, oh, yeah,

805
00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:22.920
I go to all these different levels and I do

806
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:26.760
all this stuff that they're not offering any witness cases.

807
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:30.199
They're not offering any you know, science that they've done

808
00:53:30.239 --> 00:53:33.840
with any actual researchers or anything like that. So it's

809
00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:37.559
just you don't know whether this is just sort of

810
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.599
all all in their mind. They're not they're not sort

811
00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:44.320
of trying to test any of that or prove any

812
00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:49.639
of that in any kind of genuine way. So I

813
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.800
hope that my work brings in a bit more of

814
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:56.559
that rationality, and for the people who do have maybe

815
00:53:56.559 --> 00:54:01.679
a little bit more skeptical minds, maybe my work kind

816
00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:05.800
of appeals to those people a bit more and they

817
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:07.679
can be a bit more sort of confident in that.

818
00:54:08.119 --> 00:54:11.079
But ultimately, I want people to have their own experiences.

819
00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:12.840
I don't want it to be about me. I want

820
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:16.559
it to be about my work can open the door

821
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:20.400
to allow other people to have their own experiences.

822
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:21.559
So that's with the.

823
00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:24.679
Second book, the first book I wrote, Having News of

824
00:54:24.679 --> 00:54:27.440
the Human spirit is kind of my journey. It's like

825
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:31.519
the experiences I've had, It's the things I've perceived. It's

826
00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:35.400
sort of and there's maybe the spiritual insights that those

827
00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:39.519
experiences have given me. The second book, Navigating the Hotboody Experience,

828
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:43.599
is more like how to do it? And you know how,

829
00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:47.199
you know what I've learned over the years in terms

830
00:54:47.239 --> 00:54:50.159
of mechanisms, And I've just updated that book just you know,

831
00:54:50.199 --> 00:54:53.679
a few months ago. So it first came out in

832
00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:56.920
twenty twelve, and now I've done a complete, revised, updated

833
00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:03.400
version now, you know. And then creating the technologies, like

834
00:55:03.440 --> 00:55:09.039
I've worked with virtual reality, immersive installations. That's another side

835
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:12.920
of my work. Before I started teaching and writing books

836
00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.800
and things like that, I was a professional artist and

837
00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.320
I was creating these environments that were designed to give

838
00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:22.599
people their own experiences. So the first version of my

839
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:26.960
own Preliminal Sound was developed as part of those environments.

840
00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:31.079
So I created a structure, for example, that lifted people

841
00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:33.480
off of the ground and they could get inside the

842
00:55:33.519 --> 00:55:36.400
structure and then the sound would play and it would

843
00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:39.039
kind of take them into a trance and the feeling

844
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:41.440
of being off the ground would almost be like being

845
00:55:41.480 --> 00:55:44.400
in a flotation tank or something like that, so they

846
00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:47.000
could get close to the feeling of what it would

847
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.239
be like being out of body, and it helped to

848
00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:54.519
get them to an outbody experience, or at least into

849
00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:59.320
the vibrational state and that kind of thing. So yeah,

850
00:55:59.760 --> 00:56:02.000
it's it's all a lot of my work, and that

851
00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:04.679
started sort of in the nineties. I started doing that

852
00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:09.320
kind of project, so it's sort of my work for decades.

853
00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:13.719
There's really been about facilitating and developing ways to allow

854
00:56:13.880 --> 00:56:17.400
people to have those experiences and to sort of teach

855
00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:20.239
them the most effective ways to do that.

856
00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:24.239
All right, well, it is about the time to let

857
00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:26.280
you your so I'll give them to you and tell

858
00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:28.239
everybody where they can find you and find your work.

859
00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:36.679
Okay, Well, go to Graham Nichols dot com. Graham Nichols

860
00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:40.280
is two l's in Nichols and on there you can

861
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:45.079
get the infraliminal recordings, you can get the links to

862
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:49.920
my books. They're on Amazon, sort of the usual scenario,

863
00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:55.000
and there's also an online course that people can download

864
00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:57.280
that goes into all of this. And I also do

865
00:56:57.400 --> 00:57:01.639
private tuition if people are in sted in learning directly

866
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:04.519
from me. So all of the information on that is

867
00:57:04.559 --> 00:57:07.159
all on my website, gram nicoles dot com.

868
00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:09.719
All right, Graham, thank you so much for being on

869
00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:10.719
Paratruth to be Born.

870
00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:13.079
You're very welcome. It's been good.

871
00:57:13.719 --> 00:57:16.239
All right, folks. That is it for us this week.

872
00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:19.639
There's always more to the story when it comes to

873
00:57:19.960 --> 00:57:23.400
Paratruth Be be Born. Until next week, folks, where you'll find us,

874
00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:27.639
same time, same channel. My name is Justin. I'll talk

875
00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:28.239
to you guys later
Graham Nicholls Profile Photo
Graham Nicholls

Author & OBE Expert

Graham Nicholls is an English author, as well as a lecturer and advisory board member for The Rhine Research Center. He is a leading practitioner and researcher into out-of-body experiences.
He had his first OBEs in 1987 and has had some of the most acclaimed verified experiences on record. He has participated in research at The Rhine Research Center, The Institute of Noetic Sciences and has organised and taken part in research with biologist Dr. Rupert Sheldrake. He is the author of Avenues of the Human Spirit and Navigating the Out-of-Body Experience. Graham Nicholls has gained much attention for his rational approach to his abilities and has lectured at venues including Cambridge University, Kings College, The Society for Psychical Research, The International Remote Viewing Association Conference, The London Science Museum, London. Graham Nicholls incredible verified OBEs are also featured in several books by other authors.