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Coming up on Paratruth ree Born, I'll be talking to
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Graham Nichols about out of body experiences.
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Welcome, we do parent Truth.
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Truth, what's going on paratruthers. Welcome to another episode of
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Paratruth Reborn. My name is Justin and I am very
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happy to welcome Graham Nichols to the show to talk
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about out of body experiences. Graham, Welcome to Paratruth re Born.
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Hi, thank you, it's good to be here.
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Now what got you started in studying out of body experiences?
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Well, I guess having my own spontaneous experiences when I
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was around eleven or twelve, and then learning to induce
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them a couple of years later.
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So it was kind of.
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It happened naturally to me, and then I wanted to
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understand what the experience was and learn more about it.
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And basically I heard about the concepts. I don't really
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remember where I heard about it. It was maybe an UR
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newspaper or on the television or something, but I heard
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about this concept about body experiences and I had the
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sort of Eureka moment, Oh, that's what happened to me.
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So that began the process of looking into it. And
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read the book on the subject, and then discovered there
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was a teacher in London who was giving a lecture
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around that time as well. So I kind of went
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to his lecture and then became his kind of prodigy,
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I guess, and started working for him on the weekends,
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and so it just became my focus in life, I guess.
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Okay, So I think a lot of people associate out
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a body of experiences with near death experiences. What's the difference.
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I think out of body experiences are a component of
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a near death experience. An out of body experience can
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obviously happen completely independently of a near death experience. Out
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of body experiences can arise from many different states of consciousness,
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whereas a near death experience really is inducing an out
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of body experience because of a cardiac arrest or because
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of a situation where you're very close to death. It's
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not always cardiac arrest, but very very close to a
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sort of death state, and then someone will have an
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out body experience and that and then develop into things
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like going down the tunnel that many people are aware of,
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meeting with loved ones who've passed over, that kind of
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description that we're all sort of familiar with. But yeah,
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so I think the out of body experience is really
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a component of that near death situation. There's even the
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area of shared death experiences, which are less known about,
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and shared death experiences are when someone has an out
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of body experience at the same time as someone else
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is having a near death experience or an actual death
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experience and shares in that process. I had an experience
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like that when I witnessed a plane crash basically the
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people who died in a plane crash, and I found
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myself in this misty, cloud like environment. I witnessed all
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these people in a state of confusion, not really sure
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what was happening to them. I even saw them going
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through their life review and the whole process. And then
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shortly after that experience, I discovered that there had been
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a plane crash in Svalbard, which is an island part
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of Norway, and it was sort of on the news
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the next day or I don't remember exactly when they
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reported it, but after my experience and I realized that
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it was at the same time that I'd had the
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outboody experience, so it all kind of correlated, and the
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description of the people were sort of they were of
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Slavic descent. They were miners going to the island to
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do mining work, and I've literally seen them as kind
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of manual workers, you know, very kind of leathered appearance
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and that kind of thing. So, yeah, that was a
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powerful experience because I could kind of verify it in
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the real world essentially. So that's an example of a
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kind of shared def experience.
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That's that fascinating that you had that experience because I've
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heard of people astro projecting, which is typically considered our
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body experience in a sense, and doing like work on
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the astral plane while they're out of their body. So
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it's fascinating that you had an experience that kind of
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correlates with that. Now, when you had your first experience
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at eleven, what was that experience?
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Like? The very first experiences were quite fleeting. My memory
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of them is quite vague now, but essentially they were
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quite unusual actually because they weren't like most people tend
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to think of coming out of your body, looking back
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at yourself, lying on the bed, that kind of description.
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But it wasn't that at all. Those first experiences. I
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found myself of half a mile from where I actually
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lived near to the school that I went to at
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the time, and I found myself sort of floating vertically
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off the ground, maybe hard to say, half a meter
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something like that. But I was off the ground, and
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I was observing the environment around me, and it was
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hyper vivid, hyper real, you know, it was like I
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was physically there. The only difference was that I was
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off the ground, which obviously wouldn't be a normal scenario.
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So I didn't know what this was. I didn't know
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what I was experiencing. I wasn't asleep, so it wasn't
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like I knew. It wasn't a dream, and I felt
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myself go into this sort of altered state. It was
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sort of like a trance state came over me, which
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is still how I do it now. I don't do
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it from sleep, which is often an assumption people make.
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I don't do it from sleep. I don't do it
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from sleep paralysis. I don't do it from lizard dreams,
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from a like a trance state, basically a conscious waking
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trance state. And yeah, so that's kind of how it happened.
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And I just found myself in that location and was
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obviously surprise startle. Looked around at the environment, and then
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a few moments later I found myself back in my body,
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back in my bedroom. So they were quite brief, kind
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of fleeting experiences, those early ones, but obviously they stayed
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in my memory and I was kind of like, what
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was that. I had no language for it. I didn't
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know what it was until I heard about this concept.
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Out of all the experiences.
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Now, I mean eleven, twelve years old, that's a really
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young age to be having this experience. Was there a
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point that you thought it could be a dream or
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when did you realize that, you know, this is something
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more than just a dream.
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I don't think I really considered them to be dreams, because,
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like I said, I was awake and you know, conscious
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when the state came over me, and it didn't feel
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like a dream in any way. And it's that's still
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the case today, and I've had my EEG observed. Now
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I've done a lot of research with my own kind
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of using neurofeedback and things like that sort of eg
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that sort of thing to look at my own brain states.
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I used that to sort of develop my own sound technology,
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which uses infrasound infeliminal technology.
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So during the process of developing that.
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I did a lot of monitoring of my own brain state,
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monitoring when I was in the vibrational state, which is
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sort of the precursor to a lot of our body experiences.
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One of them, I call them the transitional stages. There
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are others that the void state, for example, that's another
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common one that people have, but the vibrations are the
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most common. And so I sort of observed what was
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going on with my own brain while the vibrations were happening,
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and then sort of developed the sound technology to kind
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of work with those same brain waves and replicate that
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our body state, or the vibrational state anyway. So during
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that process, it was clear that I wasn't having rapid
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eye movement. I wasn't in the kind of brain ways
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that you would associate with sleep or with dreaming. And
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then we have also, you know, more recent science like
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fMRI research that's been done in Canada, for example, that
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where they took a young woman who was a to
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induce our body experiences pretty much consistently, and they put
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her in the from her eye scanner and looked at
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her brain state, and again, she wasn't having the brain
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waves that you would associate with with dreaming, or at
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least the dreaming. So we have quite a bit of
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research that sort of demonstrates that that it's not it's
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not just a dream state.
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Okay, well, and I mean just like the near death experiences.
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I mean, if you can describe something that's in the
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room next door, you hadn't been in that room before,
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and you're taking part in an experiment like that, I
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assume that you're not dreaming. So I completely get that.
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But from you know, from a young child's perspective, it
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I almost wonder if it ever felt like a dream
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to you, But obviously it didn't. So trying to tell
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people this from you know, from that young of an age.
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How did people react to that?
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I don't really remember too much about how they reacted.
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I guess it was more when I started learning to
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induce them myself, which was about fourteen, and when I
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was working with the teacher, my sort of mentor, Douglas Baker,
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when that process began. That was when I started talking
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about it more. I guess some people were superstitious about it.
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A lot of people have unfounded fears and things about
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the experience, So there was that some people that were
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just you know, skeptical, but not in an engaging way.
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They would just be like, oh, I don't really believe
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in that. And that was as far as the conversation went.
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So it wasn't like it was sort of like a
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big debate or anything like that. It was just, you know,
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it was either disinterest or superstition or genuine interest. Those
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were the sort of three responses I had. I guess
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my parents were interested in a sort of it's not
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my thing, but it's interesting kind of That was sort
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of their attitude towards it. I guess, Okay, now, something
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that I've always wanted to try as actual projector even
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have our body experience or even.
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Stuff like that. But one of my biggest fears has
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always been not wanting to come back or getting separated
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from my body. Is that a possibility, I don't think so.
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I've not really come across any real evidence that that's really.
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A genuine concern.
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I mean, most people, you know, in the in the
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teaching I do, when I work sort of private tuition
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with students and things like that, a lot of the
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focus is on staying out longer. It's not on it's
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not on like whether they'll come back or not, because
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most experiences when you're learning, the first experiences tend to
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be shorter, and then as you develop, as the whole
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process gets kind of deeper, it sort of starts to
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get to around twenty minutes seems to be about the
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average experience with people. So it's not like it's a
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really long experience or like this really any issue with
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getting back to the body. I think being in the
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body is sort of your default state, if you like so,
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I think I think it's more like your brain, your
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mind wants to kind of click back into its normal
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state of being. But then we can get into the
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whole philosophical perspective of is it actually taking place in
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the sense of something leaving the body, like a soul
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or a spirit or anything like that. I tend to
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think it's more like an extended consciousness that you're sending
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some aspect of yourself, some perceptual part of yourself to
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another location, rather than like a literal sort of spirit
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body or.
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Something like that.
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So when you look at it in that more modern context,
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I think then the idea of being inside or outside
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starts to break down a little bit as well. There's
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the whole idea. You know a lot of ideas about
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like is consciousness even based in the brain, or is
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it just is it like a field around us? Is
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it sort of extended so we're almost like a node
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on a bigger network. So there's lots of possibilities for
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how the experience might take place. So I don't think
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that's really anything to worry about.
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Well, I'm glad you explain it like that, because then
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it kind of makes me think of like remote viewing
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or you know, like a telepathic experience, stuff like that
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over your spirit or soul or whatever you want to
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think about it, leaving your body.
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Yeah, well I see it like I mean, I don't.
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With all of this work, I tend to take the
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approach of I'm always open to learning new things and
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seeing what the truth might be. I'm definitely not a
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person who's into dogma and saying, oh, this is how
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it is and I've worked it all out. I tend
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to shy away from people like that. I'm kind of right,
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you know, I'm never convinced by that kind of thing,
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because although it maybe sounds good in a kind of
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sales pitch kind of way, I don't think it really
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I don't think it's really true that anyone can say
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they've worked these things out. I think it's far more
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exciting in a way to be open and say, well,
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we don't really know how it works, and there's these
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little clues and hints, and we're kind of developing more understanding,
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and that's what I try to do. That's why I'm
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quite interested in being involved in the science. And I
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think pretty much the only author, the only person in
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this field who's also doing science and taking part in
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experiments and that kind of thing. And part of the
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reason for that is because I really believe in the
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more we understand the experience, the better we'll be able
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to induce the experience and to teach people how to
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do it, and also the more likely it will be
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that it will be taken more seriously and people will,
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you know, start to see that there is something valid
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in this experience for sure.
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Well, and you know, anybody who cause themselves and quote
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a quote expert in anything that has to do with
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paranormal supernatural stuff, it's like, well, are you an expert though,
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because there's a lot that is still unexplained, and if
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you're an expert, you should be able to explain anything
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that has to do with what you're talking about.
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Well, to some degree, I think expertise can be that
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you have a full knowledge of the current available information,
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the current available knowledge, you know, because it's I guess
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with everything, it's all you know, it's only to the
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level that we currently understand it. It's like with medical
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science or something. You know, someone can be an expert
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in brain and science, but they're an expert in our
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current understanding of brain science. So I guess it's sort
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of but you know, who knows. Twenty years time, the
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field might be completely completely transformed. So but that's exciting
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to me because I am, you know, I'm really interested
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in all these interesting aspects of the experience. For example,
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I'm very interested in the visual perception in obe s
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because you're talking about seeing things in another room or whatever. Well,
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in order to do that and understand that, we need
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to understand how vision works in an hour body experience.
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Often it's just assumed that it's exactly the same as
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it is in any other, you know, situation, like in
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normal everyday life.
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But of course, why would it.
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Be like that you're in a completely different, altered state
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of consciousness You're perceiving things in a completely different way,
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so why would vision work in the same way. And
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we have all these clues, like, for example, the cerulean state,
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as I call it, which is this sort of blue
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gray state of vision that I've had in several of
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my verified witnessed experiences, especially my sort of most famous,
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the sort of so Ho pre cognitive experience that I had,
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where I witnessed I was in a room with four
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other people teaching them the g technique, which is one
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of the methods I used to induce an out of
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body experience, and I went into quite a deep chance state,
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went out of body, found myself in Soho in central London,
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and I witnessed a bombing an explosion coming out from
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a pub a bar at the far end of the street.
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And then told everyone in the room.
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What I perceived and that I felt that this was
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a precognitive experience. It was one of the deepest experiences
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I've ever had. Several of the people there had to
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sort of try and coax me back to consciousness because
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I was very very deep in this sort of altered state.
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But when I did come back to the room, I
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described everything that happened, and then fire days later there
303
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was a bombing in that exact street, in a bar
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in the location that I said. If people are interested,
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there's a video with one of the witnesses describing it
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as well. You can on my website or on YouTube.
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So yeah, that was.
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It's a very unique experience because it was precognitive. It
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was witnessed as I had the outbu the experience, and
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all of the details were verified.
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So so doing this it's not just like in present time.
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Because you mentioned precognition, you can have a out of
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body experience and be experiencing stuff in other parts of time.
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Then yeah, I mean I didn't intentionally go into you know,
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I struggled with the whole idea of precognition.
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I still do.
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I think, you know, the whole idea of seeing something
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for it happens is quite counterintuitive. I guess it's a
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difficult thing to get your head round, right, So yeah,
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I struggled with that concept. But I had this strong
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intuitive feeling that what I'd seen was not happening right now,
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but was a pre cognitive experience, and I said that
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at the time to the people in the room. So
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it was you know it was. It was very unusual
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for me. So it's not something that I would say
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I do. I don't sort of look to go sort
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of to the future or anything like that, particularly in
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my experiences. But I've had I've had probably three pre
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cognitive experiences, so it's not a common feature. But that
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was interesting because it was probably my most powerful outbody
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experience and it was also pre cognitive, and it was
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also witnessed.
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So now, can anybody do this or learn how to
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do this?
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I think within reason, yeah, I mean with my private
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tuition and courses and things that I teach, I think
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most people, most people can get to a sort of
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reasonable level if they if they do it consistently. That's
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really the key, the big mistake. This is a really
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good piece of advice because the big mistake that most
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people make is that they jump from technique to technique,
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and I think with OBEs it's a bit like muscle memory.
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You need to consistently do the practice, even if it
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becomes tedious, even if you feel like you're not making progress,
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you have to kind of stick with it and be
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consistent with the technique. When I learned to induce my
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own experiences I just had one basic technique that i'd
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read in this book by Genetly Mitchell, a parapsychologist, and
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I just did that technique relentlessly because it was the
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only one I had, and I think that was actually
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part of why I ended up being successful. But it
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did take six months for me to get to that point,
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even though I'd had a few spontaneous experiences already. So
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I think there's a yeah, there's a degree of kind
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of persistence with it.
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But I think, like with most.
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Things, like with playing a musical instrument or learning a
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language or something like that, I think it comes down
359
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to who's going to be persistent and he's going to
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kind of keep going when maybe the initial excitement has
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worn off and keep going with the process. But what,
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like I said, what a lot of people do is
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they'll sort of they're looking for this sort of wonder
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technique and really there there isn't one. The biggest key
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is that consistency, and then on top of that, it's
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the pre state.
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That's what I always advise.
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People, Like in my teaching with people, I always focus
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on teaching them how to get to the pre state
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for the outbody experience. What I mean by the pre
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state is kind of like the altered state that I
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talked about, being in that sort of deep state, so
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that you can initiate the outbody experience from that. Because again,
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what a lot of people do is they learn a technique,
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say online, they look up a technique, and then they
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try to apply that technique without being in a sort
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of altered state to start with, or they just try
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to do they try to get into sleep paralysis or
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something like that. And that's not the greatest either, because
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sleep paralysis is for most people are very negative, scary,
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unpleasant experience. So it's not really the way that I
382
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would recommend for most people. Unless you have it naturally
383
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all the time or something, then obviously yes, utilize it,
384
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:10.400
but I don't think it's particularly something to look for
385
00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:13.960
because it's you know, it's a very unpleasant experience to
386
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have really for most people. So so yeah, I guess
387
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another approach I take is to try and cater the
388
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methodologies the techniques to the individual, because I think sometimes,
389
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for example, people will give someone a visualization method and
390
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:33.680
maybe that person is no good at visualizing, maybe they
391
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:38.200
can't visualize, so that's not very good or They'll give
392
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:42.400
someone a lucid dream method and that person never remembers
393
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their dreams, even so, how are they going to get lucid?
394
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So it's about.
395
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Applying the right methodology, the right approaches for the individual.
396
00:25:54.400 --> 00:26:01.279
Okay, now, when you're starting to induce this state of consciousness,
397
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:04.279
is there like a type of meditation involved or how
398
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:07.319
does that usually work when you're starting to go into
399
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:08.039
an obe.
400
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:13.119
It's a bit more complicated than the type of meditation
401
00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:15.319
I would say. I would say there's sort of different
402
00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:19.079
components to it. Like I mentioned the sound technology I use,
403
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:23.319
which is not binormal beats. A lot of people, you know,
404
00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:28.400
assume it's binural beats, but I literally developed infraliminal sound
405
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:33.079
because I didn't find binural beats very effective for me.
406
00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:35.400
So I started to look.
407
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:39.279
Into alternatives, and then I looked into infrasound, and then
408
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:43.359
also looked into hypnotic suggestion and things like that. So
409
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:46.759
basically I sort of combined the two together and developed
410
00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:49.839
that sound technology. And it was also based on the
411
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.839
vibrational state. When I'm in the vibrational state, trying to
412
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:57.920
sort of replicate that, So that's something I use to
413
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:03.640
get me to that different state of awareness. I also
414
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:10.240
will use things like sensory deprivation. I also work with breathings.
415
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:14.799
So the G technique is a combination of breathing techniques
416
00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:20.440
and physical sort of physical muscle tension and things like that.
417
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:27.079
So it's essentially creating a complete physiological shift into a
418
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:31.640
different state that then facilitates the out of body experience.
419
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:36.920
So there's a sort of meditational component within all of that,
420
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:39.960
but it's you know, it needs to have the complete
421
00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:44.079
sort of holistic package, i'd say to be most effective.
422
00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:50.160
Gotcha, Now, what kind of research and experiments have you
423
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:53.559
done in doing all of this and.
424
00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:57.000
Working with OBUs.
425
00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:59.920
You mean in a science context.
426
00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:04.960
With yeah, like like you mentioned, bring scans and stuff
427
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.799
like that to verify that you're not in a sleeping steed.
428
00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:12.640
Oh okay, Well most of that was done when I
429
00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:16.880
was developing the infraliminal sound using neuro feedback, so had
430
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:21.720
sort of like the EEG system and so it was giving.
431
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.000
So then while I was in the EG, I would
432
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.160
or the nearer feedback because it's sort of on a
433
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:32.200
computer system, so you get like a visual representation of
434
00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:37.319
what's going on in your own head basically, so I
435
00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:41.039
would use that and I would go into the vibrational
436
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:44.759
state initially, and so then we could see the different
437
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:47.880
sort of patterns that were coming up, and you know,
438
00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:52.279
logging all of that information and then from there sort
439
00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:53.240
of going into.
440
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:54.240
The out body experience.
441
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:58.839
So there was that, then there was also and the
442
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:02.279
brain state was notistant with sleep or dreaming, and there
443
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:05.519
was no rim either. So I've been observed quite a
444
00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:10.160
lot while out of body, and my breathing doesn't become
445
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.880
how you would normally, you know, associate someone with being asleep.
446
00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:16.480
I mean, most of us know what it looks like
447
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:20.680
when somebody's asleep. They're breathing changes there. You know, their
448
00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:25.680
muscle tension and things like that changes that. It's very
449
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:29.759
sort of clear when someone's asleep. So none of that
450
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:38.680
is present. My pulse goes very low. Oxygenation can shift
451
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:42.400
as well, which is interesting. I often I've got sort
452
00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:45.319
of a sensory deprivation room in my home here that
453
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.519
I use from my practice a lot, and I have
454
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:51.640
a pulse oximeter in there which sort of monitors my
455
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:55.559
oxygen levels and my pulse rate and things like that.
456
00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:58.200
So I try to monitor as much as I can
457
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:02.160
on a on a consistent level, and when people you
458
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:06.400
know are around, they sort of can. My my ex partner,
459
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:10.119
for example, she observed me quite often and you know,
460
00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:13.839
was was clear that it was different when I was
461
00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:16.599
in an auburty experience too, when I was asleep, So.
462
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:17.480
Things like that.
463
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:23.279
And then I've taken part in scientific research, but that's
464
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:28.799
more to do with psychic perceptions. So I've done precognition
465
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:32.880
experiments with Rupert ChIL Drake got the highest score he'd
466
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:39.240
ever seen in that. I've also done telepathy experiments with
467
00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:45.960
Rupert Schildrake using telephone telepathy. So you get a phone
468
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:50.400
call and you have to select using a numb like
469
00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:53.680
on the keypad. You have to select who you believe
470
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:57.359
is calling you, but you know, up until that point
471
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:00.319
the call is not actually connected. But once you make
472
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:02.440
the selection and it connects and you see if you're
473
00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:06.440
right or wrong. So that that's sort of telephone telepathy experiments.
474
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.920
So I organized some of those experiments as well as
475
00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:17.680
took part in them. Then I also did micropsychokinesis experiments
476
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:21.319
with Dean Raiding at the Institute of Noteic Sciences in
477
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:26.720
the US, So that's literally trying to affect things on
478
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.599
a quantum level. They headed interferometer, which is basically what
479
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:34.319
they use for the double slit experiments. It's firing photons
480
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.759
through the double slits and psychically or in a kind
481
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:41.880
of a shielded Faraday room. It's sort of like a
482
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:46.000
steel box essentially, almost like a yeah, just like a
483
00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:50.000
kind of steel box, like a kind of industrial refrigerator.
484
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:51.759
It looks like it's got like a big sort of
485
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:54.079
hand or on the door and stuff. Okay, but they
486
00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:56.440
put you in there and then you have to try
487
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:02.960
and psychically influence the doubles flit experiment. So we've got
488
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:07.279
positive results in that, and Dean Raiding has replicated that
489
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:11.680
experiment now in sort of multiple himself, and also it's
490
00:32:11.720 --> 00:32:16.839
been done in other institutions, and most recently, I've been
491
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:21.000
working with the Ryan Research Center for probably over a
492
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:27.000
decade now, and one of the projects we've done was
493
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:32.240
a fourteen week more like the classic thing that you
494
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:35.960
might think sort of like remote viewing or out of
495
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:41.519
body experiences to perceive targets. So sometimes he used remote viewing,
496
00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:44.759
sometimes he used out of body experiences. The targets were
497
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:47.039
set up in the US. At the time, I was
498
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:50.279
living in Estonia. So all I was sent was an
499
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:55.359
email to say that there was a new target or
500
00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:59.440
whatever was being selected, and then I had to try
501
00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:05.519
and see the target from Estonia. And interestingly, the out
502
00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:10.000
of body experienced ones where I tried to proceed the
503
00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:13.119
target while in an outbody experience, those were the ones
504
00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:17.400
that were most accurate. But overall it was statistically significant
505
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:21.839
and we had positive results. So all the experiments I've
506
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:26.880
done have been statistically significant of a positive. So, yeah,
507
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.599
those are the main ones I've done.
508
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:35.240
Now, has there ever been an experience that was kind
509
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:39.079
of and this is gonna sound weird, outside the norm
510
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:41.880
of your normal orbe experiences?
511
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:47.119
Can you be a bit more What do you mean51200:33:47.160 --> 00:33:48.279
by outside the norm?51300:33:49.000 --> 00:33:53.400
Like you, for example, you had an out of body51400:33:53.480 --> 00:33:59.039
experience on another planet or in a astral projective state,51500:33:59.240 --> 00:33:59.920
stuff like that.51600:34:02.799 --> 00:34:07.759
Well, I've I've had experiences on other levels like the51700:34:07.759 --> 00:34:12.119
one I mentioned with the you know, the shared death experience.51800:34:13.840 --> 00:34:16.559
I've had a lot on those other levels. But I guess,51900:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.159
I guess I'm always a bit cautious with that because52000:34:19.199 --> 00:34:27.239
it's it's tricky too, I guess to say, how objective,52100:34:27.480 --> 00:34:32.400
how definite, those kinds of experiences are. And in the52200:34:33.000 --> 00:34:36.840
many decades that I've sort of been exploring this, I've52300:34:36.880 --> 00:34:40.480
seen this tendency that I guess most people have, most52400:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.239
humans have, me included. I'm not separating myself in that52500:34:44.360 --> 00:34:47.800
sense to to kind of get caught in your own52600:34:48.039 --> 00:34:52.719
interpretation of things. And I guess going back to that52700:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.679
sort of that I like to keep an open mind52800:34:55.800 --> 00:34:59.960
and open perception. I try not to sort of assume52900:35:00.039 --> 00:35:03.360
and what it is that I'm seeing, so I tend53000:35:03.360 --> 00:35:06.719
to be more cautious about those kinds of experiences. But53100:35:06.840 --> 00:35:11.320
in terms of planets and that kind of stuff, I've53200:35:11.400 --> 00:35:14.599
had a few experiences actually, one that was kind of53300:35:14.679 --> 00:35:19.400
semi verified as well, where I initially thought I was53400:35:19.480 --> 00:35:23.760
moving over the surface of the moon, our local moon, okay,53500:35:25.239 --> 00:35:28.320
and it had all the sort of craters and looked53600:35:28.360 --> 00:35:31.400
gray and you know, everything like I would expect of53700:35:31.480 --> 00:35:36.119
the moon. But then I came upon this distinctive ridge53800:35:36.840 --> 00:35:40.880
running through the moon that was sort of greenish, and53900:35:41.159 --> 00:35:43.840
you know, it was quite prominent, like right across the54000:35:43.880 --> 00:35:47.599
surface of the moon. And that was really interesting because54100:35:47.599 --> 00:35:51.880
I was like, well, this isn't this obviously isn't local moon.54200:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.400
This is obviously somewhere else, so kind of where am I?54300:35:56.280 --> 00:35:57.039
So I tried to.54400:35:58.920 --> 00:36:01.000
Try to sort of not to you like, as much54500:36:01.039 --> 00:36:04.679
as I could about the environment. And then afterwards I54600:36:05.000 --> 00:36:08.000
went online and I typed in all of the details54700:36:08.000 --> 00:36:10.760
that I was able to perceive, the main one being54800:36:10.800 --> 00:36:15.480
the ridge, and to my surprise, a moon came up54900:36:15.599 --> 00:36:18.599
that matched all the criteria, all the things I perceived55000:36:18.639 --> 00:36:22.840
that I perceived, which was Ipetus, which is one of55100:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.039
the I think it's the third largest moon of Saturn.55200:36:27.000 --> 00:36:27.199
OK.55300:36:27.800 --> 00:36:33.599
So, yeah, that was That was a really interesting experience55400:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.760
because it was kind of somewhat verified. I mean, obviously55500:36:36.800 --> 00:36:40.320
it could have been wrong, but it seemed to match55600:36:40.400 --> 00:36:42.960
in every way what I perceived in the experience.55700:36:44.199 --> 00:36:48.440
Right now, have you ever had an experience there that55800:36:48.599 --> 00:36:54.800
frightened you or startled you in any way?55900:36:55.159 --> 00:36:55.679
Not?56000:36:55.679 --> 00:36:59.239
Not really, I mean only I guess the you know,56100:36:59.360 --> 00:37:05.440
the experience was startling. It was somewhat scary because it56200:37:05.480 --> 00:37:10.079
was a it was a you know, a horrible experience56300:37:10.159 --> 00:37:14.199
that was happening to the people in that situation. But56400:37:14.599 --> 00:37:18.119
other than that, no, I haven't because I don't do56500:37:18.199 --> 00:37:21.880
it via sleep proalysis, for example, I don't tend to56600:37:22.119 --> 00:37:24.800
have if you do it that way, there's all the56700:37:24.880 --> 00:37:27.280
kind of sleep paralysis is associated with, you know, the56800:37:27.360 --> 00:37:31.039
cron and the you know, these sort of little creatures56900:37:31.079 --> 00:37:33.880
and things like that. It's more than which I don't57000:37:33.880 --> 00:37:37.320
think are objectively real. I think they're hallucinations. I think57100:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.960
they're part of your dreaming mind, you know, when you're57200:37:40.960 --> 00:37:44.159
in that paralyzed state, so you're having kind of like57300:37:44.199 --> 00:37:46.519
a waking night there. So if you don't do it57400:37:46.559 --> 00:37:50.280
in that way, then you don't perceive those things essentially,57500:37:50.400 --> 00:37:54.199
so you don't have those kinds of experiences. So yeah,57600:37:54.679 --> 00:37:58.880
I haven't, and my students haven't either, so so yeah,57700:37:59.000 --> 00:38:02.280
so I think quite the opposite. Really, most of the57800:38:02.320 --> 00:38:06.360
experiences are very life affirming and powerful.57900:38:07.280 --> 00:38:13.079
Okay now, and that's same note, and you kind of58000:38:13.119 --> 00:38:17.480
already addressed it. But can it'll be easy be dangerous58100:38:17.480 --> 00:38:18.360
in any way at all?58200:38:20.760 --> 00:38:21.440
I don't think so.58300:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.760
I can't think of any way that they can be really,58400:38:24.960 --> 00:38:27.559
I mean, I guess the only thing.58500:38:28.039 --> 00:38:29.440
I think it's more the opposite.58600:38:30.440 --> 00:38:33.079
It's strange to me that we focus on this sort58700:38:33.079 --> 00:38:36.280
of idea in a way, because I think the benefits58800:38:36.840 --> 00:38:41.559
vastly outweigh this sort of myth that there's any kind58900:38:41.599 --> 00:38:46.599
of danger or negativity. I think all of that comes59000:38:46.639 --> 00:38:48.800
from sleep broalysis. I think all of that kind of59100:38:48.840 --> 00:38:52.119
fear and like, oh that there's there could be something59200:38:52.159 --> 00:38:56.400
harmful comes from people having sleep brossis experiences and mixing59300:38:56.440 --> 00:39:00.480
them up with our body experiences. So I think it's59400:39:00.599 --> 00:39:03.519
really because they're having a waking nightmare, so they're like, oh,59500:39:03.599 --> 00:39:06.840
you know, this is a dangerous thing or whatever. But59600:39:06.920 --> 00:39:09.480
if you don't do it in that way, you're not59700:39:09.519 --> 00:39:11.920
going to have those kinds of experiences, and you're probably59800:39:11.920 --> 00:39:14.360
not going to have the fears and that kind of thing.59900:39:14.559 --> 00:39:18.119
So yeah, I mean I did quite a deep dive60000:39:19.239 --> 00:39:23.840
for several years looking for any real cases because I60100:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.760
felt that it was my responsibility, if I'm going to60200:39:26.800 --> 00:39:29.320
teach this thing and I'm going to write books on60300:39:29.400 --> 00:39:30.920
it and that kind of thing.60400:39:31.400 --> 00:39:33.039
To do a real deep dive.60500:39:33.159 --> 00:39:39.960
So I looked into various traditions from voodoo, Santaria, condomble.60600:39:40.920 --> 00:39:45.480
I looked into Goetia, I looked into the Lemma Gatton,60700:39:45.880 --> 00:39:51.079
all this sort of demonology stuff. Some of the early cases,60800:39:51.199 --> 00:39:53.800
like the case that the film The Exorcist was based on.60900:39:54.079 --> 00:39:56.960
I looked into all this kind of stuff. Looking for61000:39:57.159 --> 00:40:01.400
examples of something where there was a new in harm61100:40:01.519 --> 00:40:05.039
or negative outcome, and I found nothing that was convincing.61200:40:05.440 --> 00:40:10.000
I found like people having a scary experience that was61300:40:10.280 --> 00:40:13.719
essentially no worse than they'd had a nightmare. But again,61400:40:15.159 --> 00:40:18.800
ninety nine percent of the time it was a sleep61500:40:18.840 --> 00:40:22.920
paralysis related experience. When someone described something where they were61600:40:22.920 --> 00:40:26.559
scared or whatever, but still nothing harmful happened to them.61700:40:28.599 --> 00:40:32.159
So yeah, so I've not found anything that sort of61800:40:32.199 --> 00:40:35.840
convinces me. But obviously people are entitled to their beliefs.61900:40:35.880 --> 00:40:39.880
If they if they feel, based on religion or something,62000:40:39.920 --> 00:40:43.679
that there's some harm, then obviously they should go with62100:40:43.719 --> 00:40:47.559
what they feel is correct. I just but I can62200:40:47.599 --> 00:40:50.559
say that after you know doing this, I'm in my62300:40:50.639 --> 00:40:54.280
fifties now and I started doing this at like eleven twelve.62400:40:55.960 --> 00:40:59.599
I've had no negative outcomes. I've only seen the positives,62500:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.360
which it seems to have a healing aspect to it.62600:41:02.360 --> 00:41:06.639
It can be very beneficial, it can be very interconnecting,62700:41:06.800 --> 00:41:09.239
make you feel more connected with the world around you.62800:41:09.360 --> 00:41:11.519
It can it can kind of give you a sense62900:41:11.559 --> 00:41:15.519
of freedom. I think out of body experiences are the63000:41:15.559 --> 00:41:20.360
core component of shamanism for example, because the very definition63100:41:20.440 --> 00:41:23.400
of shamanism is to go out of body to bring63200:41:23.480 --> 00:41:28.199
back healing for the group or the tribe. So it's63300:41:28.280 --> 00:41:31.719
literally and our body experience is a part of shamanic tradition.63400:41:33.119 --> 00:41:38.239
There are I'm working with a Sami chaman at the moment,63500:41:38.760 --> 00:41:43.000
and within his culture there is the use of the63600:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.840
drum to go into an altered state, then to go63700:41:45.960 --> 00:41:48.840
out of body and to travel, and there's a there's63800:41:48.840 --> 00:41:52.960
a long tradition in that culture from the far north63900:41:53.000 --> 00:41:57.320
of Europe of of going out of body for you know,64000:41:57.480 --> 00:42:03.400
spiritual healing and progression, and it can it's also you know,64100:42:03.519 --> 00:42:05.760
you can see it in other traditions as well, this64200:42:06.280 --> 00:42:09.440
kind of idea of going out of body in a64300:42:09.480 --> 00:42:13.039
sort of positive context. So so yeah, I think I64400:42:13.079 --> 00:42:17.239
think really, as far as I've experienced, it's it's more64500:42:17.280 --> 00:42:22.039
of a beneficial, positive, transformative healing experience.64600:42:23.159 --> 00:42:27.519
Okay, Now, are there any other any other myths that64700:42:27.920 --> 00:42:30.119
people get wrong when it comes to out of about64800:42:30.119 --> 00:42:31.199
the experiences.64900:42:33.840 --> 00:42:37.079
Maybe just the whole focus on on energy bodies and65000:42:37.119 --> 00:42:39.719
things like that, I think that's really common one. And65100:42:39.800 --> 00:42:44.639
silver cords, you know, all that kind of thing. While65200:42:44.800 --> 00:42:48.679
a certain percentage of people do experience a silver cord,65300:42:48.719 --> 00:42:52.360
it's very low. It's sort of in the in my research,65400:42:52.400 --> 00:42:57.159
it's more like one percent. Carlo Salva Doo's research is65500:42:57.199 --> 00:43:02.440
probably the unfortunately he's passed away now, but when he65600:43:02.519 --> 00:43:05.519
was alive, his research was probably the most extensive in65700:43:05.599 --> 00:43:10.480
terms of scientifically collating data and then looking at the65800:43:10.559 --> 00:43:16.320
experience and seeing what people actually experience. And in his65900:43:16.360 --> 00:43:19.280
research he found between five and sort of ten percent66000:43:19.760 --> 00:43:23.320
of people might experience a silver cord. But then interestingly,66100:43:24.639 --> 00:43:28.000
so the majority don't. But then interestingly, also with the body,66200:43:28.079 --> 00:43:31.840
the whole idea of having a second body, the vast66300:43:31.880 --> 00:43:35.440
majority don't have a second body. As well, the majority66400:43:35.480 --> 00:43:40.440
of people, seventy percent of people experience a traveling awareness66500:43:40.519 --> 00:43:43.719
or a traveling consciousness or being some kind of sphere66600:43:43.840 --> 00:43:48.280
of awareness, sphere of energy, something like that, rather than66700:43:48.480 --> 00:43:54.039
a body. So again that's the sort of common misconception66800:43:54.239 --> 00:43:57.880
that people expect. It's that it's an astral body and66900:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.880
all that kind of thing. But this all comes from67000:44:01.079 --> 00:44:04.119
what I call the theosophical model, which was really put67100:44:04.159 --> 00:44:07.519
forward by the Theosophical Society and the sort of eighteen67200:44:07.639 --> 00:44:11.599
hundreds and onwards where they would talk about that there's67300:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.280
an etheris body and then there's an astral body and67400:44:14.360 --> 00:44:17.800
a mental body in a cause or body, and you know,67500:44:18.760 --> 00:44:22.719
different models go to different numbers of bodies, but they67600:44:22.760 --> 00:44:27.559
get usually around seven different bodies, whereas in New Age67700:44:27.639 --> 00:44:31.159
literature it's sort of been refined down to maybe three,67800:44:32.840 --> 00:44:34.920
predominantly the etheric and the astral.67900:44:36.840 --> 00:44:38.639
But yeah, it's kind of.68000:44:40.360 --> 00:44:44.760
I think it's an outdated model now. I think we've68100:44:44.800 --> 00:44:49.159
got a much more exciting way to look at it68200:44:49.199 --> 00:44:53.760
now because we were looking at these ideas around extended consciousness,68300:44:53.760 --> 00:44:59.159
expanded consciousness and that, you know, these ideas of models68400:44:59.639 --> 00:45:04.079
body just sort of limit how we can understand and68500:45:04.159 --> 00:45:05.280
explore the experience.68600:45:05.360 --> 00:45:05.719
I think.68700:45:06.559 --> 00:45:15.199
Okay, now, have your experiences kind of said anything to68800:45:15.239 --> 00:45:18.199
you about life after death, like solidifying that there is68900:45:18.280 --> 00:45:21.440
something outside of this physical experience?69000:45:23.679 --> 00:45:26.039
I think so, yeah, I think.69100:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.480
I think at the very least there's some form of69200:45:30.559 --> 00:45:34.039
continuation of consciousness seems to be the case, when you know,69300:45:34.320 --> 00:45:40.760
from my own shared the experience through to reincarnation memories69400:45:40.800 --> 00:45:45.199
in children, but also in my own experiences encounters with69500:45:45.480 --> 00:45:51.199
what seemed to be spirits or consciousnesses that have passed on,69600:45:53.760 --> 00:45:59.119
perceiving different environments that seem to be consistent with an afterlife,69700:45:59.239 --> 00:46:02.159
like this sort of summer lands that are talked about69800:46:02.679 --> 00:46:06.559
in quite a few different context different traditions and things.69900:46:07.360 --> 00:46:10.079
I've experienced those kinds of environments that seem to be70000:46:10.199 --> 00:46:17.079
some kind of consensus reality where many people's perceptions have70100:46:17.199 --> 00:46:19.719
sort of fed into it and it's created a sort70200:46:19.719 --> 00:46:24.480
of almost like an artificial idealized Earth in a way.70300:46:26.039 --> 00:46:28.840
That kind of thing seems to have a sort of70400:46:28.840 --> 00:46:33.840
objectivity to it. But again it's once you get the70500:46:33.960 --> 00:46:36.639
sort of further you go into those levels, the harder70600:46:36.679 --> 00:46:40.440
it is to remain objective and to kind of really70700:46:40.800 --> 00:46:43.880
know for sure. But I would say that the evidence70800:46:43.920 --> 00:46:48.840
definitely leans heavily in that direction from multiple sources, so70900:46:49.360 --> 00:46:52.559
from out body experiences, from near DIIF experiences, from shared71000:46:52.599 --> 00:46:57.519
IF experiences, from past life memories and children, you know,71100:46:57.719 --> 00:47:02.119
mediumship research like the research of Julie Bishare at the71200:47:02.159 --> 00:47:07.000
Wingdbridge Institute, you know, different things like that, it all71300:47:07.039 --> 00:47:11.280
converges together to all point towards some kind of continuation,71400:47:11.400 --> 00:47:16.199
and also apparitions and things like that. I saw the71500:47:16.239 --> 00:47:19.400
first sort of paranormal experience that ever happened to me71600:47:19.599 --> 00:47:25.039
was perceiving an apparition when I was about five, standing71700:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.800
in the doorway of the Tower Block apartment block that71800:47:28.840 --> 00:47:35.119
I grew up in, and you know, that in itself,71900:47:35.199 --> 00:47:39.199
I think opened me up to the possibility that there72000:47:39.280 --> 00:47:43.400
was more going on. And then I've had other I guess,72100:47:43.480 --> 00:47:47.639
ghost stroke, apparition, whatever you want to call it type72200:47:47.679 --> 00:47:51.719
experiences since then, including when I lived in Tallinn, which72300:47:51.800 --> 00:47:56.119
is very historical place, very medieval. I lived in the72400:47:56.159 --> 00:47:58.599
old town of Talinn for ten years, so it was72500:47:58.639 --> 00:48:03.159
a very you know, full of history. One of the72600:48:03.199 --> 00:48:08.239
streets that I lived on, mariva Hare Street is essentially72700:48:09.039 --> 00:48:12.360
known to have what they call an energy pillar, which72800:48:12.440 --> 00:48:16.599
is sort of I guess, something akin to a kind72900:48:16.639 --> 00:48:21.119
of lay line or Earth energy line, that kind of idea.73000:48:22.440 --> 00:48:25.280
But so that was on the street that I lived on,73100:48:25.760 --> 00:48:31.239
and there was also kind of different ideas about presences73200:48:31.280 --> 00:48:35.440
and entities and things like that that people had perceived73300:48:35.480 --> 00:48:39.000
over the years in that kind of area, and I73400:48:39.039 --> 00:48:41.440
saw the I saw the apparition of a young woman73500:48:42.480 --> 00:48:45.840
in that in that house when I lived there.73600:48:47.960 --> 00:48:49.559
One possibility also when I.73700:48:49.519 --> 00:48:54.119
Lived in in Brighton, on the coast in England. I73800:48:54.280 --> 00:49:02.239
also perceive a these sort of shadow figures, uh on73900:49:02.320 --> 00:49:06.280
several occasions, and my partner at the time also perceived74000:49:06.480 --> 00:49:10.360
them in that in that house, and we did find74100:49:10.400 --> 00:49:15.719
that possibly there there was a family that potentially died.74200:49:15.800 --> 00:49:18.920
And I say family because it's kind of important because74300:49:19.039 --> 00:49:23.400
it seemed to be adults to maybe two adults and74400:49:23.440 --> 00:49:27.199
then two children, because there was sort of two small74500:49:27.719 --> 00:49:32.880
different Yeah, yeah, in the shadow figures. And one night74600:49:32.920 --> 00:49:35.639
I woke up and I literally sat up in my74700:49:35.679 --> 00:49:38.280
bed out of nowhere, just woke up, sat straight up,74800:49:38.719 --> 00:49:41.480
looked at the doorway, and I saw these two figures,74900:49:41.880 --> 00:49:44.599
you know, and they sort of drifted out of the doorway.75000:49:46.840 --> 00:49:50.039
So so, yeah, so I've had I've had experiences like75100:49:50.079 --> 00:49:52.079
that as well that also feed.75200:49:51.880 --> 00:49:53.559
Into the whole area.75300:49:54.679 --> 00:49:56.800
I wrote about all of that in my first book,75400:49:56.880 --> 00:50:00.360
Navigating the Hour Body Experience. Sorry that's my second, but75500:50:00.440 --> 00:50:02.760
the first book, Avenues of the Human Spirit, I wrote75600:50:02.800 --> 00:50:05.119
about those kinds of experiences.75700:50:05.639 --> 00:50:12.320
Yeah, okay, Now, is there anything that you still don't75800:50:12.360 --> 00:50:16.000
have answers for when it comes to this work.75900:50:16.679 --> 00:50:18.880
I think there's there's lots of things we don't have76000:50:19.000 --> 00:50:21.239
answers for and I you know, I don't think anyone76100:50:21.320 --> 00:50:26.239
has answers for I mean, I think what I've probably76200:50:27.360 --> 00:50:29.679
what I what I'm most confident about and want have76300:50:29.760 --> 00:50:33.159
developed the most knowledge of in the sense that we76400:50:33.239 --> 00:50:36.880
can be confident of it is the techniques and the76500:50:36.920 --> 00:50:42.000
methodologies and how to sort of induce the experiences. In76600:50:42.079 --> 00:50:45.840
terms of what exactly the experience is, that's a lot76700:50:45.920 --> 00:50:50.960
more tricky to understand because there's different levels to it76800:50:51.000 --> 00:50:53.559
as well. Because even if we define in that boody experience,76900:50:53.679 --> 00:50:56.960
there's what it feels like to the individual, what it77000:50:57.000 --> 00:50:59.719
feels like to me when I have that experience, that's77100:50:59.760 --> 00:51:03.039
one level. Then there's also what might actually be going77200:51:03.079 --> 00:51:06.159
on in more of a scientific sense. That's a completely77300:51:06.239 --> 00:51:09.880
different level. Because the two don't really match up. They77400:51:09.920 --> 00:51:13.880
seem to have a they seem to be quite distinct.77500:51:14.519 --> 00:51:17.679
So it seems it seems like we're dealing with a77600:51:17.840 --> 00:51:25.199
partly psychological construct type experience and then a partly something77700:51:25.920 --> 00:51:30.760
non physical, something beyond the brain, something that's sort of77800:51:30.800 --> 00:51:33.840
to do with the extended mind, or maybe quantum mechanics,77900:51:33.840 --> 00:51:37.239
something like that. There's various scientists who put forward that78000:51:37.320 --> 00:51:41.679
idea like so Roger Penrose or Brian Josephson who won78100:51:41.719 --> 00:51:46.039
the Nobel Prize for physics, he thinks psychic abilities are78200:51:46.119 --> 00:51:49.119
probably to do with entanglements. So that's kind of the78300:51:49.159 --> 00:51:52.679
most popular idea for how it might all be working.78400:51:53.039 --> 00:51:57.159
But we don't really know. So there's a lot there's78500:51:57.199 --> 00:52:00.960
a lot still unknown about the experience. But yeah, the78600:52:01.000 --> 00:52:05.400
things we can be confident about are we understand the78700:52:05.480 --> 00:52:12.280
mechanisms for inducing the experience quite well. Now, we understand78800:52:13.000 --> 00:52:18.159
maybe the limits of what's possible within the experience, at78900:52:18.280 --> 00:52:22.360
least in terms of scientific research. You know, we know,79000:52:23.199 --> 00:52:27.760
we know kind of how how powerful the experience can be,79100:52:28.159 --> 00:52:31.840
and we know like what can't really be done or79200:52:31.880 --> 00:52:34.519
at least has never been demonstrated so far, so if79300:52:34.559 --> 00:52:36.400
it can be done, it's very very rare.79400:52:37.679 --> 00:52:38.920
So that kind of things.79500:52:39.079 --> 00:52:45.199
So yeah, okay, now, is what is your hope that79600:52:45.280 --> 00:52:48.440
people take away from your work?79700:52:49.800 --> 00:52:52.599
I think I want, you know, ultimately, I want them79800:52:52.639 --> 00:52:56.599
to have their own experiences. You know, I think I79900:52:57.360 --> 00:53:00.159
don't want it to be about me primarily. I mean,80000:53:00.639 --> 00:53:05.199
I've seen my experiences and sharing what what what I've done,80100:53:05.280 --> 00:53:08.280
and you know, by doing the scientific experiments and things80200:53:08.400 --> 00:53:12.440
like that. I hope that it gives people more of80300:53:12.480 --> 00:53:18.559
a sense of confidence that these things are possible, because80400:53:18.559 --> 00:53:21.039
obviously there's a lot of people who are just saying, oh, yeah,80500:53:21.079 --> 00:53:22.920
I go to all these different levels and I do80600:53:22.960 --> 00:53:26.760
all this stuff that they're not offering any witness cases.80700:53:26.880 --> 00:53:30.199
They're not offering any you know, science that they've done80800:53:30.239 --> 00:53:33.840
with any actual researchers or anything like that. So it's80900:53:34.079 --> 00:53:37.559
just you don't know whether this is just sort of81000:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.599
all all in their mind. They're not they're not sort81100:53:40.599 --> 00:53:44.320
of trying to test any of that or prove any81200:53:44.360 --> 00:53:49.639
of that in any kind of genuine way. So I81300:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.800
hope that my work brings in a bit more of81400:53:52.840 --> 00:53:56.559
that rationality, and for the people who do have maybe81500:53:56.559 --> 00:54:01.679
a little bit more skeptical minds, maybe my work kind81600:54:01.760 --> 00:54:05.800
of appeals to those people a bit more and they81700:54:05.800 --> 00:54:07.679
can be a bit more sort of confident in that.81800:54:08.119 --> 00:54:11.079
But ultimately, I want people to have their own experiences.81900:54:11.159 --> 00:54:12.840
I don't want it to be about me. I want82000:54:12.880 --> 00:54:16.559
it to be about my work can open the door82100:54:16.800 --> 00:54:20.400
to allow other people to have their own experiences.82200:54:20.480 --> 00:54:21.559
So that's with the.82300:54:22.039 --> 00:54:24.679
Second book, the first book I wrote, Having News of82400:54:24.679 --> 00:54:27.440
the Human spirit is kind of my journey. It's like82500:54:27.840 --> 00:54:31.519
the experiences I've had, It's the things I've perceived. It's82600:54:31.559 --> 00:54:35.400
sort of and there's maybe the spiritual insights that those82700:54:35.480 --> 00:54:39.519
experiences have given me. The second book, Navigating the Hotboody Experience,82800:54:39.880 --> 00:54:43.599
is more like how to do it? And you know how,82900:54:44.320 --> 00:54:47.199
you know what I've learned over the years in terms83000:54:47.239 --> 00:54:50.159
of mechanisms, And I've just updated that book just you know,83100:54:50.199 --> 00:54:53.679
a few months ago. So it first came out in83200:54:53.719 --> 00:54:56.920
twenty twelve, and now I've done a complete, revised, updated83300:54:57.519 --> 00:55:03.400
version now, you know. And then creating the technologies, like83400:55:03.440 --> 00:55:09.039
I've worked with virtual reality, immersive installations. That's another side83500:55:09.039 --> 00:55:12.920
of my work. Before I started teaching and writing books83600:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.800
and things like that, I was a professional artist and83700:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.320
I was creating these environments that were designed to give83800:55:19.400 --> 00:55:22.599
people their own experiences. So the first version of my83900:55:22.639 --> 00:55:26.960
own Preliminal Sound was developed as part of those environments.84000:55:27.039 --> 00:55:31.079
So I created a structure, for example, that lifted people84100:55:31.119 --> 00:55:33.480
off of the ground and they could get inside the84200:55:33.519 --> 00:55:36.400
structure and then the sound would play and it would84300:55:36.480 --> 00:55:39.039
kind of take them into a trance and the feeling84400:55:39.079 --> 00:55:41.440
of being off the ground would almost be like being84500:55:41.480 --> 00:55:44.400
in a flotation tank or something like that, so they84600:55:44.400 --> 00:55:47.000
could get close to the feeling of what it would84700:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.239
be like being out of body, and it helped to84800:55:49.280 --> 00:55:54.519
get them to an outbody experience, or at least into84900:55:54.559 --> 00:55:59.320
the vibrational state and that kind of thing. So yeah,85000:55:59.760 --> 00:56:02.000
it's it's all a lot of my work, and that85100:56:02.119 --> 00:56:04.679
started sort of in the nineties. I started doing that85200:56:04.800 --> 00:56:09.320
kind of project, so it's sort of my work for decades.85300:56:09.360 --> 00:56:13.719
There's really been about facilitating and developing ways to allow85400:56:13.880 --> 00:56:17.400
people to have those experiences and to sort of teach85500:56:17.480 --> 00:56:20.239
them the most effective ways to do that.85600:56:22.559 --> 00:56:24.239
All right, well, it is about the time to let85700:56:24.320 --> 00:56:26.280
you your so I'll give them to you and tell85800:56:26.280 --> 00:56:28.239
everybody where they can find you and find your work.85900:56:29.840 --> 00:56:36.679
Okay, Well, go to Graham Nichols dot com. Graham Nichols86000:56:36.840 --> 00:56:40.280
is two l's in Nichols and on there you can86100:56:40.320 --> 00:56:45.079
get the infraliminal recordings, you can get the links to86200:56:45.119 --> 00:56:49.920
my books. They're on Amazon, sort of the usual scenario,86300:56:51.000 --> 00:56:55.000
and there's also an online course that people can download86400:56:55.199 --> 00:56:57.280
that goes into all of this. And I also do86500:56:57.400 --> 00:57:01.639
private tuition if people are in sted in learning directly86600:57:01.679 --> 00:57:04.519
from me. So all of the information on that is86700:57:04.559 --> 00:57:07.159
all on my website, gram nicoles dot com.86800:57:07.880 --> 00:57:09.719
All right, Graham, thank you so much for being on86900:57:09.800 --> 00:57:10.719
Paratruth to be Born.87000:57:11.480 --> 00:57:13.079
You're very welcome. It's been good.87100:57:13.719 --> 00:57:16.239
All right, folks. That is it for us this week.87200:57:17.239 --> 00:57:19.639
There's always more to the story when it comes to87300:57:19.960 --> 00:57:23.400
Paratruth Be be Born. Until next week, folks, where you'll find us,87400:57:23.800 --> 00:57:27.639
same time, same channel. My name is Justin. I'll talk87500:57:27.639 --> 00:57:28.239
to you guys later
