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Coming up on Parachute Reborn, we'll talk with Deborah DeAngelo
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about her book, Pagan Curiouser, a joyful path of nature, magic,
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and spirituality.
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Welcome to Parachute Reborn.
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Welcome everybody to Paratrooth Reborn. My name is Eric. And
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I'm Justin. And tonight we're talking about paganism. But not
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necessarily the paganism that you might have seen in movies,
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on TikTok, or even imagined when you heard the word witch.
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What happens when spirituality becomes something you discover for yourself? Well,
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tonight we're going to ask our guest to help us
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answer some of those questions. So without further ado, Deborah,
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welcome to Parachute Reborn.
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Thank you for having me.
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Thank you for joining us. We're excited to be able
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to talk to you here. Before we really get started
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into the conversation of your book, it Can you kind
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of tell us a little bit about your own journey
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into paganism, how it all kind of began?
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Well, I started out okay. I was born this way.
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I've been, you know, school, parents, community, you know, those
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things are silly. Animals and trees don't communicate with you. So,
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you know, these things get stunted. The natural abilities and
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interests that you have as a child, they get stunted.
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And sometimes it takes a while to get back to
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it if that's not supported. So in my case, it
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took quite a long while. I was in my 30s
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when I had a brief stint with Christianity because in
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this little town where I live, there wasn't much happening.
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I moved into a little town. I grew up agnostic, essentially. But...
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There was nothing else going on here. So I had
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my couple years with that, and I hit a tipping
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point with it where I recognized this just is not me.
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But when you're kind of sunk into it, it's a
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little hard to extract. But I did, and I was
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just firm about it. And I kind of drifted for
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a while. I didn't know where I was at spiritually,
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but I knew it wasn't that. I just kept yearning for,
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I say I was homesick for a home I never
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had been to. I just knew I belonged somewhere, but
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I wasn't sure where it was. I only knew where
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it wasn't. And I started going to Renaissance fairs and
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Scottish festivals and meeting people that were sort of on
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the periphery of mainstream spirituality and beliefs and kept searching
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and searching and searching. And one day, landed on a
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goddess retreat weekend. So that was a start of, oh,
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there's a whole nother spiritual system out there somewhere. And
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I kept looking. And one day, saw a flyer for
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a pagan harvest festival. And I just got that gut
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feeling of it. I need to go to this. And
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I walk in by myself. And there's all these people
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in amazing clothes and there's music and there's scents and
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sounds that were unfamiliar to me but instantly familiar and
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i went i've found my um i've found my tribe
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you know i i felt like i don't know if
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you guys are are you old enough to remember blind
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melon am i really dating myself.
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I remember blind melon remember blind.
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Okay so you remember the video with the The no
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rain video where the little bee girl walks into the
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meadow and finds all the other bees. That was me.
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I found my bee tribe. And that's where it began.
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And that was where I first talked to any real, quote,
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real pagans, which is trying to figure out what this
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was all about. And that was the start of the journey.
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That's where I stepped on foot on the path. And
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back in those days, we didn't have social media. We
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had ICQ. Now I'm really dating myself, but that was
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kind of the little chat system we had. We had
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bulletin boards, but we had Witch Fox. But there just
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wasn't a lot online. I mean, probably 80% of the
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wonderful books we have now weren't even written yet. And
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the people we all know and love now in the
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pagan writing community, hadn't written anything yet. We didn't know
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who they were. And so initially I began finding out
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more by going to in-person festivals because there was no
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pagan presence where I live. I'd like to say in
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the town where I live, the pagan community was a
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community of three, me, myself, and I. That was it.
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It's not really a pagan friendly place. It's not necessarily
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pagan antagonistic. But also it's not really open to it either.
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Right.
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So I went to festivals for years and years and
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years and just listened, did a lot of listening and
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did a lot of reading. And I discovered what resonated
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with me and what didn't. And I think like everybody
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who started out a couple decades ago, read Scott Cunningham's
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book on solitary witchcraft, Raymond Buckland. And my third of
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the big three was to ride a silver broomstick by
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Silver Ravenwald. And they were all different. And they were
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all confident in the way they did it, but different
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and all pointing out, you as a solitary can pick
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and choose and shape your own path. So that really
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appealed to me because I like being in charge of
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just myself. I tend to not really like committees so
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much because it seems like a lot of energy gets
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sucked into minutiae, is red paper or blue paper, and
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I'm just not interested. And I just tend to do
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better on my own. I feel the connection to the goddess,
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the universe, whatever you want to call that spiritual force,
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is stronger to me by myself. Cowed in nature. That's
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where it's at its most powerful. And so I just
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kept going along, going along and learning. It was always
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like an unfolding path. And how these books came to be,
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one of my great passions was tarot. I studied it
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for years and years and years. Finally started running my
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own group, which is still running. It's now in its
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10th year. And this was pre-COVID. And we used to
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have the meetings at my house. And I used to
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set a tone. I'd have my fairy lights and candles.
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And it would look really quite magical when you came
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in through this meeting. And people would say, you know,
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what is this rock for? And what is that symbol?
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And what is all this? And one of the gals says, well,
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you need to write a book about this for people
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like us. And I thought about it. This is the
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first book, Pagan Curious. And I thought about it and
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I said, I don't really have a good book to
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recommend to you because there's all kinds of books on
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beginning witchcraft. But these were just mainstream ladies who were curious.
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And for many people who are in the mainstream and
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don't have contact with the pagan community, the word witch
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is still very loaded.
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Yeah.
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Some people will see witch on the title or witch
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in the conversation and they just shut off.
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That's it.
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I don't do that. All that stuff's the devil. That's
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what I've been told my whole life. And so I
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know that there are some people that will push through that.
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And there's others who will be too afraid to push
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through that. And that was this group of women that
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I was working with with the Tarot. And I thought,
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I want to write a book that makes it safe
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for them, for those. And for it to be, you know,
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this isn't a big, scary, mysterious thing. It can be,
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but it doesn't have to be. And you don't have
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to join a group or call yourself a particular thing
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or dress a certain way. You can create this yourself
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and it can be just as meaningful and powerful as
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if you followed in a group. And there's nothing wrong
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with being in a group if that's what you like.
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And if you have access to it. Now, in my case,
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there was no access to any group. So I did
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write that first book. And it was basically pagan preschool.
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The ABCs and 123s. This is this and that is that.
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And it was designed so that someone might walk into
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a pagan festival and not feel lost, or into a
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metaphysical bookstore and know a little bit about what they're
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looking at, and why do I want this symbol instead
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of that one, and what does this crystal mean, or
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that one, who is this goddess, and what is all
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this stuff?
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That was the first book.
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So it was my editor that actually asked me to
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write the second one, and this book... I was a
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little stumped at first because I thought I threw everything
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into the first book. I don't know what else there
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is to introduce people to. So I put it out
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on my own Facebook page and asked people who had
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read the first book, what would you want to read
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in this book? And one of them, Rhonda, who is
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in the dedications, she said, well, I know what everything
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is now, but I don't know what to do with it. Okay.
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So it's like I took you into the craft stores
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and showed you all the stuff, but you don't actually
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know how to make a painting or how to do
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ceramics or do we even want to do ceramics? So
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that really is what the second book is. You could
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certainly start with the second book because it's much more
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activity oriented. There's a whole lot of activities in there
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that should be simple for anyone to do. Most of
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them don't even require any tools other than some of
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them have a notebook and pen, but a lot of
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them require nothing at all. And so I wanted to
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make this book so that anyone of any background, of
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any financial situation, any physical limitation, anything at all would
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be included. That's really important to me that Everybody feel welcome.
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Everybody gets to play. Nobody gets left out. Because in
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my early days, when I would go to festivals, some
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people were welcoming and some weren't. I, at the time,
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back in those days, was a newspaper editor. And at
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that time, journalists were looked at with a little bit
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of skepticism. Like, oh, you're going to write about us,
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which I wasn't. That's not why I was there. But,
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you know, it was a mixed bag. Excuse me. And
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I know for me, it's hard and it's uncomfortable to
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walk into a group and say, hey, can I sit down?
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You know, it's just uncomfortable. And these were called hospitality suites.
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That's what really cracked me up. Not all of them
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were hospitable, but... So.
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I guess what I really want to do is sort
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of defang the whole issue and the whole topic and say,
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whatever it is you think, you know, from church or
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your family or your friends or from the movies or
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from wherever most likely isn't true. And that's what this
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is all about. I mean, here we go.
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Because unfortunately, most people get their knowledge from fiction and yeah, not,
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even close to true. Um, now something that I found
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fascinating is that you call yourself a garden variety, which
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an eclectic solitary dirt, which, so I have to ask this,
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what is a dirt, which a dirt, which.
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Is I can do whatever I want to do. Almost
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anything I want to imagine, which is dirt. There's dirt
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is so versatile dirt. Dirt is, um, You can grow
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in dirt. You can write symbols in dirt. You can
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use dirt for spells. I like to just be, you know,
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when I was little, I was the little kid in
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the backyard planting things and covered in mud. And I
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still am kind of a horse girl. I'm comfortable with dirt.
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And I think, although it's nice to have lots of
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fun tools and everything, A lot of times, all you
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really need is your own will and something you can
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be creative with. And dirt's very versatile. And I say eclectic,
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garden variety. A lot of people don't know what garden
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variety means anymore. I'm realizing. Excuse me. When I was young,
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it used to be you bought vegetables. They were either
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garden variety or fancy. And the garden variety ones were
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a little bit blemished, a little bit plain. They weren't
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as nice as the others, but they're just average. And
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that's more what I am. I'm not a fancy witch.
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I'm more along the lines of the old mysterious odd
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gal that wants to hang out in the cabin with
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the cats and rats. That's the other great thing about dirt.
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You can grow with plants, and plants... are so magical
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in so many ways. All four elements are represented in plants.
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I could do just about anything I wanted planting. And
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I get a little bit too enthusiastic about that. In fact,
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my editor in this book said, can you knock it
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off with the plants? Put all the plants in one place,
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but enough with the plants. And eclectic, because there are
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lots of things I've learned from established traditions that I
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really appreciate. And I just kind of absorb that in.
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There's a lot of things about Wicca that I like.
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There are things I like about Hoodoo, even though that's
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kind of a cultural appropriation, red flag warnings with Hoodoo.
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The actual practitioners that I've met are very encouraging. So, Um,
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there's a whole lot of knowledge and a lot of
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that hoodoo knowledge is based in roots and herbs and
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plants and sticks and bones and the things that you find, um,
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not in stuff you have to go to the metaphysical
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shop and spend $ 50 for, you know, a little bottle
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of something. Right. And I think you can, you can
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do just as much magic on your own with what
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you find, um, as you can with store-bought stuff. And
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in fact, you know, we have all these traditions in paganism,
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but they all began with one person somewhere scratching a
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symbol in the dirt and, you know, walking a circle
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around it and holding it up to the goddess. It
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all began somewhere. And so in my mind, it's like, well,
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things can begin with me as well, and they can
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begin with you. And this is how I do it.
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You can do it this way as a, as training wheels,
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but you know, ultimately you want to be following your
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own intuition, your own will, because, because that's the strength
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of magic is your trust in your own intuition and,
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and your own will. That's what makes it happen. Not
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having a fancy robe and a glittery wand. It's, it's,
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it's inside. Right. Little, little eclectic me. I'm just a
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cherry picker of spiritual things.
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Nothing wrong with that at all. And that kind of
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00:17:53.650 --> 00:17:57.170
comes along the same idea or similar idea to chaos magic,
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where people kind of are very eclectic in their approach
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to it. And I like the fact that you call
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yourself a garden variety pagan, because it's like, in my mind,
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it makes so much sense. You know, you say that
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you're someone who's, you know, basically reserved. You're not, you know,
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over the top with it necessarily where, you know, you
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look at TikTok, you look at Facebook and there's people
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on there. It's just like, everything's adorned. It's like, look
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at me. I am, which there's nothing wrong with, but
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you see the difference between someone who is more subtle
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with their beliefs and their faith versus those who are
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just more extravagant with it.
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It's, it's really hard because, you know, I know a
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lot of really old school witches and pagans and, We
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talk about this, you know, quietly amongst ourselves. But TikTok
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really kind of blew everything up.
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Yeah, yeah.
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If you have a million followers, suddenly you're a witch,
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you know. And I'm sorry. It's like, what can I
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grab here that's sitting right in front of me? Look
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at this. Look at this.
283
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Tappy, tappy, tap.
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This is my pendulum. All of that just makes me
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nervous to watch it. Yeah. But they get lots of followers.
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They are witchcraft influencers, is what I think they really are.
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They don't necessarily have a lot of background and wisdom,
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but they have a lot of exposure and followers. And
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the thing that's, I mean, that's all, you know, fine.
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People can take that or leave it. But what bothers me,
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I'm more active on threads than TikTok. I kind of
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dig that. But from time to time, there's a lot
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of people there asking questions, beginner questions. And the social media,
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which is the the witch talk witches, will dive in
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on them and say, that's a closed practice. Or if
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you do this, you know, F-A-F-O and blah, blah, blah, blah,
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and terrify them. And it's like, I'll chime in sometimes
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and just say, just don't, don't any of that, you know? Uh,
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and I, I frequently will list names of people that
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00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:14.079
I know are approachable and trustworthy. I mean, there are
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some people like Deborah Blake, Silver Raven Wolf, um, Laura Tempest, Zaycroft, um,
302
00:20:21.750 --> 00:20:24.609
Matt Aron is another one. Matt, Matt has his own
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00:20:24.690 --> 00:20:29.500
perspective on his spirituality, but he as a person is
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00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:36.690
welcoming and warm. He's never, um, confrontative or or he
305
00:20:36.730 --> 00:20:39.470
doesn't put people down but there are people around that
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are still alive like a lot of the people i've
307
00:20:42.490 --> 00:20:45.900
met over the years are not but there are people
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00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:50.420
out there and i try to redirect them but it
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00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:55.420
does feel like kind of an uphill battle because there's
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also a current in there about boomers yeah blah blah
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blah the boomers are all and it's like Well, about
312
00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:09.079
all of us. And that's a really disappointing thing to
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me because when I first started on this path, elders
314
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and the crones were everything. I mean, they had all
315
00:21:16.140 --> 00:21:19.019
the knowledge passed to them because we didn't have social media.
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We didn't have websites and stuff. It was passed hand
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00:21:23.529 --> 00:21:28.660
to hand verbally by groups. It grew within groups. And, um,
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00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:33.299
it's a different world there now. They are not into
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00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:35.509
the young people are not interested in what the, the
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00:21:35.549 --> 00:21:38.589
clones have to say. They, they are more interested in
321
00:21:39.650 --> 00:21:42.789
Barkley stuff. That's on social media. So you've gotten me
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00:21:42.849 --> 00:21:49.559
on one of my soap boxes. You've asked for it. I,
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00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:52.500
the kind of stuff that, and I've learned to just
324
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mostly just shake my head and walk away. Sure. Unless
325
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someone's getting hurt. if someone's getting hurt or seriously derailed,
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I'll say some, most of the time I walk away
327
00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:05.640
cause it's an uphill battle, but you know, I'll see
328
00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.880
things like this girl, she dissed me and she looked
329
00:22:08.900 --> 00:22:10.619
at my boyfriend and I need to, I need to
330
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hex her good. And I'm like, no, you don't. It's
331
00:22:15.569 --> 00:22:18.150
you just don't. But they're, they've all latched onto that
332
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word hexing.
333
00:22:19.150 --> 00:22:19.410
Sure.
334
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Yeah. Like, you know, in my mind, hexing sort of
335
00:22:24.230 --> 00:22:28.380
like using the gun, like, You should know how to
336
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.900
use the gun. But, you know, 99.9% of the time,
337
00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:34.700
leave it locked up on a shelf and don't go there. Right.
338
00:22:35.220 --> 00:22:37.539
Or safety, not for attacking.
339
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:44.299
Yeah. Right. Hexing damages. There's a place in magic for that.
340
00:22:45.829 --> 00:22:48.289
I was told, now she got in a lot of
341
00:22:48.329 --> 00:22:52.569
hot water later on, but I actually went to the
342
00:22:52.609 --> 00:22:55.829
workshop with Z Budapest a little at one time was
343
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a really respected elder. She kind of blew herself up
344
00:22:59.589 --> 00:23:03.500
and it got out of control over, over her insistence
345
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.880
on cis women in her groups. But it's, it's like,
346
00:23:07.900 --> 00:23:10.119
you can't throw the whole thing out. You know, she
347
00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:12.769
was one of the people that made it legal to
348
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practice Tarot in California. She went to jail for the
349
00:23:15.650 --> 00:23:24.630
rest of this, but, but she said that, um, If
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you're hexing to prevent harm to innocent people or to
351
00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:34.359
stop harm to other people, that's an acceptable time to
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00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:36.900
do it. Not that someone made you mad or they
353
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cut you off on the freeway or they're dating your ex-husband.
354
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I guess what I'm saying is I see a lot
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of trivializing of witchcraft in social media because we have
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witchcraft influencers rather than witchcraft practitioners. or people who are
357
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witches or pagans and living that life and trying to
358
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walk that path versus people who are just saying, look
359
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:04.900
at me, look at me and follow, follow, follow, follow.
360
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You know, it's frustrating to have seen the entire arc
361
00:24:08.700 --> 00:24:09.079
of this.
362
00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:11.200
No, a hundred percent.
363
00:24:11.420 --> 00:24:14.569
Same can be said for anything that goes into the
364
00:24:14.589 --> 00:24:19.470
paranormal field too. Not just social media, but shows like
365
00:24:19.650 --> 00:24:25.019
ghost hunters, uh, paranormal state, um, where it idolized ghost
366
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:29.789
hunting and made it seem extravagant and wonderful. And in reality,
367
00:24:29.829 --> 00:24:34.910
it's kind of boring. Like you're there doing stuff for
368
00:24:34.970 --> 00:24:37.750
hours and hours and hours, sometimes eight to 10 hours
369
00:24:37.849 --> 00:24:40.369
in a night. And you don't have to even have
370
00:24:40.410 --> 00:24:42.549
to do it at night. But again, that's one of
371
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those things where we learned from the TV shows. Well,
372
00:24:46.990 --> 00:24:48.599
you have to do this at night. You're only going
373
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to catch activity at night. And that's so not the case.
374
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:52.299
Yeah.
375
00:24:53.150 --> 00:24:55.490
Well, and I think beyond that too, it's like, you know, we,
376
00:24:56.130 --> 00:24:58.450
a lot of people, when it comes to witchcraft and
377
00:24:58.490 --> 00:25:02.990
it comes, let's talk about hexes in particular, you know,
378
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:05.819
people have their own personal beliefs or opinions on there
379
00:25:05.980 --> 00:25:09.119
and ignore the reality behind it. Because what a lot
380
00:25:09.140 --> 00:25:12.099
of people don't realize is when you're putting something out
381
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.819
there that's hexing or cursing in most cases, or in
382
00:25:15.859 --> 00:25:19.160
many cases that returns to you as a form of karma, right?
383
00:25:19.609 --> 00:25:23.650
And people don't think about the consequences of going out there, right?
384
00:25:23.710 --> 00:25:25.930
It's like, and I hate to use this, but it's
385
00:25:25.950 --> 00:25:30.960
like people who defend their home. Let's say using a gun. Well,
386
00:25:31.180 --> 00:25:33.039
if you use that gun in your home, guess what?
387
00:25:33.220 --> 00:25:35.240
I bet there's consequences depending on whether or not that
388
00:25:35.299 --> 00:25:37.460
other person was armed and whether or not your life
389
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.470
is truly threatened. I know of homeowners who have gone
390
00:25:41.529 --> 00:25:43.609
to prison because they used a gun to defend their
391
00:25:43.630 --> 00:25:46.690
home against somebody who had no means of harming them.
392
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:49.019
And that is something you have to be careful of.
393
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:51.059
You have to realize that there is a reality to
394
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.200
a lot of this. And if you're going to go
395
00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:55.240
and put a hex on somebody, just know there could
396
00:25:55.259 --> 00:25:58.309
be consequences that come from the spiritual realm, that come
397
00:25:58.390 --> 00:26:03.710
from whatever, the energy systems that are involved in this.
398
00:26:04.809 --> 00:26:06.549
And I see the same thing in the Christian community
399
00:26:06.609 --> 00:26:08.710
as well. I grew up Christian, and I became a
400
00:26:08.730 --> 00:26:12.299
born-again Christian back in 2009. And there is a large
401
00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:15.359
group of people who don't want to hear the word devil.
402
00:26:15.549 --> 00:26:17.670
They don't want questions about demons. They don't want to
403
00:26:17.730 --> 00:26:21.470
hear about witchcraft. It's all evil, evil, evil, evil, evil.
404
00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:23.099
And they shut it down and don't want to talk
405
00:26:23.140 --> 00:26:26.059
about it. But now you have all these individuals who
406
00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:29.700
have questions and they feel like they can't be asked. And,
407
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:32.839
you know, it's like there needs to be, I myself
408
00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:37.660
have been persecuted for certain beliefs being a Christian. You know,
409
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.700
I think one time somebody had posted a question in
410
00:26:41.740 --> 00:26:45.170
a forum about asking, can a symbol have power in
411
00:26:45.210 --> 00:26:49.549
and of itself? I said, no, personally. That's my personal belief.
412
00:26:49.690 --> 00:26:52.369
And I was attacked for it. Telling me that I
413
00:26:52.470 --> 00:26:54.890
am not a true Christian. I'm evil if I believe
414
00:26:54.910 --> 00:27:00.390
such things. I was just like, there are people who
415
00:27:01.569 --> 00:27:05.059
base their entire philosophy of life on their own opinion
416
00:27:06.099 --> 00:27:08.740
of what they read and what they know. And they
417
00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:12.369
don't take the time to actually learn about the substance
418
00:27:12.630 --> 00:27:15.730
within those faiths and those belief systems. And I think
419
00:27:15.769 --> 00:27:18.109
we see that a lot on TikTok, especially when it
420
00:27:18.150 --> 00:27:19.789
comes to witchcraft. It's like we have a lot of
421
00:27:19.829 --> 00:27:22.859
people who read something and then they immediately accept that
422
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.480
because it's what they believe, but then they're willing to
423
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:30.200
shut down anything that opposes them or anything that contradicts
424
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.769
their own belief. And that's not to say anyone's belief
425
00:27:33.829 --> 00:27:38.170
is wrong or right, but it creates a divide and
426
00:27:38.230 --> 00:27:41.390
it creates walls. which we really shouldn't have, especially in
427
00:27:41.410 --> 00:27:44.319
the spiritual realm when we're trying to focus in on
428
00:27:44.339 --> 00:27:45.420
spirituality and grow.
429
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:51.359
I totally agree. And I've seen that happen. And what
430
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:54.940
happens is some of these witchcraft influencers, they have a
431
00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:58.000
lot of followers and you'll get somebody that will bumble
432
00:27:58.059 --> 00:28:01.569
into a thread and ask a question or say, well,
433
00:28:01.670 --> 00:28:06.150
I heard this and just get excoriated by all these people. And,
434
00:28:06.589 --> 00:28:10.779
you know, a lot of people aren't, They can't take that.
435
00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:17.710
It's stressful. It's hurtful. I've learned to just kind of
436
00:28:18.150 --> 00:28:23.289
give them the whatever and walk away. But I do
437
00:28:23.369 --> 00:28:28.220
see people that seem truly concerned. Like I've always been
438
00:28:28.259 --> 00:28:33.539
told this will happen or that will happen. Or weird
439
00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:36.470
stuff will bubble up that I don't. Didn't think was
440
00:28:36.529 --> 00:28:39.390
a thing anymore. Like the one bubbling up currently again
441
00:28:39.450 --> 00:28:43.299
is you cannot buy yourself a tarot deck. I'm like,
442
00:28:43.779 --> 00:28:48.819
my gosh. In fact, you'll start buying them and you'll
443
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:51.299
start having to hide them in places so your husband
444
00:28:51.339 --> 00:28:54.440
doesn't say, what is, why do you have more tarot deck?
445
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:59.029
I had a dog chew one up because I didn't
446
00:28:59.089 --> 00:29:00.049
hide it.
447
00:29:01.750 --> 00:29:03.690
I don't hide them because they're tarot decks. I just
448
00:29:03.710 --> 00:29:08.000
hide them because it's like, More stuff. It's like too many. But,
449
00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:11.380
but to Rodex to me are just, I just absorbed
450
00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.680
in those. So, um, I, and I, and the other
451
00:29:14.740 --> 00:29:18.089
thing that I think is sad nowadays, I sound like
452
00:29:18.109 --> 00:29:21.829
the rock of my day when we walk school, but, um,
453
00:29:21.950 --> 00:29:25.230
there seems to be a resistance to reading books. Yes.
454
00:29:25.650 --> 00:29:29.019
Like if it doesn't come in a nice, tasty bite-sized
455
00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:32.619
snack on a social media thread, people aren't interested. And
456
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.329
I'm thinking it's, Dang, you know, back in the day,
457
00:29:35.390 --> 00:29:38.849
we would pour over these books. Some of these books
458
00:29:39.069 --> 00:29:41.900
were a thick read. A lot of them, like, Margot
459
00:29:41.980 --> 00:29:45.140
Adler's Drawing Down the Moon isn't an easy read. It's like,
460
00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:49.359
I have to pay attention. And some of the others,
461
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:57.339
Buckland is not an easy read. It's just sad that
462
00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:01.089
no one has the attention span. To read things and
463
00:30:01.170 --> 00:30:03.369
to read it and absorb it and go, okay, well,
464
00:30:03.730 --> 00:30:08.549
this would work for me, but that wouldn't. Like when
465
00:30:08.630 --> 00:30:11.430
I was going through those three books in the beginning
466
00:30:12.309 --> 00:30:19.029
and Buckland's instructions for doing your own ritual and your
467
00:30:19.089 --> 00:30:23.230
own altar were super, super involved. The Lord and the
468
00:30:23.299 --> 00:30:26.160
lady and this and that. Now me, I thought I'm
469
00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:27.779
reading this. I'm going, there's no way I'm going to
470
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:28.460
memorize that.
471
00:30:28.859 --> 00:30:31.619
No possible way am I going to memorize it it's
472
00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:34.549
going to have to come from the heart so with
473
00:30:34.609 --> 00:30:38.569
Scott Cunningham and Silver Ravenwolf there was that permission to
474
00:30:38.650 --> 00:30:43.549
do it from the heart and I especially like Silver
475
00:30:43.609 --> 00:30:49.549
Ravenwolf in that she also welcomes everybody I realized and
476
00:30:49.569 --> 00:30:51.369
this was a hard right turn for me because in
477
00:30:51.430 --> 00:30:53.970
my years as a newspaper.
478
00:30:53.569 --> 00:30:56.490
Editor I was also an opinion columnist and I was
479
00:30:56.670 --> 00:31:00.359
in I was used to living with fists up and
480
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:04.980
using words like a machete. And, you know, I did
481
00:31:05.099 --> 00:31:09.000
the political stuff. I did the whole realm for 27 years.
482
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:15.440
And I was pretty combative. And I looked at her
483
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:18.240
when I left the journalism world. I thought, how do
484
00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:21.789
I want to operate in this world? And I didn't
485
00:31:21.829 --> 00:31:24.410
want to do that anymore. And she became my role model.
486
00:31:24.450 --> 00:31:26.670
And the thing that jumped out at me is, She
487
00:31:26.690 --> 00:31:32.079
never shames anybody, welcomes everybody. And there was this period
488
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:39.259
in time when, when, um, uh, belittling and criticizing silver
489
00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:42.519
Raven wolf was, was the sport. It's kind of moved
490
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:46.559
on to other people. Uh, but back then she just
491
00:31:47.140 --> 00:31:49.099
kept doing what she's doing. She held her head up.
492
00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:51.420
She kept making her posts and writing her books and,
493
00:31:51.619 --> 00:31:55.240
and she just remained true to herself. And, and to me,
494
00:31:56.140 --> 00:31:59.240
keeping that personal integrity in the face of criticism or
495
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:03.240
ridicule is important. But if you're going to crumble there now,
496
00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:06.470
luckily 27 years as a columnist, I got used to ridicule.
497
00:32:06.509 --> 00:32:13.009
I used to eat hate mail for breakfast. I wanted
498
00:32:13.049 --> 00:32:15.910
to make that change. That's, that's not the person I
499
00:32:15.930 --> 00:32:20.970
needed to be anymore. So, um, I just, I just
500
00:32:21.049 --> 00:32:24.190
wish people could feel like you were saying, Eric, that
501
00:32:24.690 --> 00:32:29.460
it were, um, ostracized for beliefs or statements or having
502
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.839
a difference of opinion. What a world it would be
503
00:32:32.900 --> 00:32:35.539
if it was okay to have differences of opinion and
504
00:32:35.619 --> 00:32:40.849
not have to destroy the other person. Right. And just say, okay, well,
505
00:32:41.069 --> 00:32:44.670
that's you. This is me. And I say that many
506
00:32:44.730 --> 00:32:47.670
times in my books. It's like, I'm showing you a
507
00:32:48.130 --> 00:32:52.519
pagan life. through Deborah colored glasses. This is what I've
508
00:32:52.579 --> 00:32:55.839
picked up. This is what I've created for myself. This
509
00:32:55.900 --> 00:32:57.589
is what works for me. You can take it or
510
00:32:57.619 --> 00:32:59.809
leave it. You can take pieces of it. You can
511
00:32:59.849 --> 00:33:03.369
take what I do and reshape it your own way.51200:33:03.829 --> 00:33:06.609
I'm not like the authority that says you have to51300:33:06.650 --> 00:33:08.849
do it this way. And that's why I say, you know,51400:33:08.869 --> 00:33:15.269
eclectic garden variety. I'm not a high priestess of anything. Um,51500:33:15.789 --> 00:33:18.230
I don't want to be a high priestess. I, I51600:33:18.250 --> 00:33:21.630
would like to be a companion to people, a guide, a,51700:33:22.339 --> 00:33:30.259
a trusted confidant, but, um, I don't need people following me. Right. Uh,51800:33:30.400 --> 00:33:33.319
obeying me. I'm just, that's just, no, it's like, no,51900:33:33.359 --> 00:33:34.839
let's just go out in the yard and do some52000:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.220
stuff in the dirt. What, what happens?52100:33:39.420 --> 00:33:42.549
No, a hundred percent. Um, Real quick, we're going to52200:33:42.589 --> 00:33:44.349
continue on, but real quick, we're going to take a52300:33:44.450 --> 00:33:48.190
quick message from our sponsors. Everybody stick around. We've got52400:33:48.190 --> 00:33:48.759
45 seconds.52500:33:48.880 --> 00:33:49.450
We'll be back.52600:33:50.380 --> 00:33:54.079
A quick thank you to our supporting sponsor, Nodakian Studios.52700:33:54.980 --> 00:33:58.740
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come together. Find out more at nodakianstudios.com. Now, well, I53400:34:41.050 --> 00:34:43.510
guess first and foremost, welcome back, everybody. We're having a53500:34:43.510 --> 00:34:48.099
little break there. Before we went to break, we were53600:34:48.119 --> 00:34:52.780
talking a little bit about your beliefs regarding paganism, but53700:34:52.900 --> 00:34:56.679
also how we tend to see in modern times, modern53800:34:56.880 --> 00:35:01.360
means that word loosely, or that term loosely, that people53900:35:01.420 --> 00:35:07.449
tend to follow others who have large followings on social media.54000:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.900
And I think it goes back to this whole idea54100:35:10.960 --> 00:35:14.619
is when people have a really big following, people just54200:35:14.699 --> 00:35:16.869
naturally tend to think, oh, I want my practice to54300:35:16.929 --> 00:35:19.210
be their practice or their practice to be my practice,54400:35:19.250 --> 00:35:21.590
I should say. And they don't ever take the time54500:35:21.650 --> 00:35:25.010
to learn what paganism means to them or what spirituality54600:35:25.030 --> 00:35:28.329
means to them, what religion, faith, et cetera, means to them.54700:35:28.469 --> 00:35:31.289
And they no longer hold their own beliefs, but instead54800:35:31.309 --> 00:35:32.630
they hold the beliefs of somebody else.54900:35:32.650 --> 00:35:34.110
Yeah.55000:35:35.409 --> 00:35:38.079
With that said, when it comes to paganism and the55100:35:38.159 --> 00:35:42.500
mindset of paganism, what does it mean to you to55200:35:42.559 --> 00:35:44.360
have the mindset of a pagan?55300:35:47.320 --> 00:35:49.769
It means to me, it's why I use the term55400:35:49.849 --> 00:35:55.449
pagan more often than witch, because it's a much broader umbrella.55500:35:56.789 --> 00:36:00.239
And a lot of people feel like if you're a witch,55600:36:01.030 --> 00:36:04.769
It's when you're doing spells or it's on certain days55700:36:05.010 --> 00:36:07.210
or in certain groups. And that's when you do your55800:36:07.329 --> 00:36:10.909
witchy stuff. But what I want to suggest to people55900:36:11.090 --> 00:36:14.219
is that's a small fraction of your life. What about56000:36:14.340 --> 00:36:18.159
all the minutes in between? That's maybe one day a month.56100:36:18.239 --> 00:36:22.579
What about the other 29 days? And I think that's56200:36:22.719 --> 00:36:28.099
where your pagan life comes from. That's the medium in56300:36:28.159 --> 00:36:33.489
which the magic sprouts and grows. So it's sort of56400:36:33.530 --> 00:36:37.469
like what they used to call Sunday Christians or Christmas56500:36:37.530 --> 00:36:39.869
Day Christians. They were Christian when they were in church,56600:36:40.349 --> 00:36:44.510
but not the rest of the time. And I think56700:36:44.550 --> 00:36:47.900
a pagan life is so much more meaningful when it's56800:36:47.960 --> 00:36:51.840
incorporated into your actual values. I spent quite a lot56900:36:51.880 --> 00:36:57.349
of time going over what are pagan values. Being pagan57000:36:57.489 --> 00:37:00.110
isn't just doing the spells and putting up the altars57100:37:00.170 --> 00:37:05.610
and finding the correct deity. It's how do you live57200:37:06.530 --> 00:37:14.409
within this world, in nature, and being congruent with it,57300:37:14.570 --> 00:37:19.130
learning from it, feeling it, feeling the energy. So I'm57400:37:19.230 --> 00:37:22.349
pagan all the time. It's not just when I'm doing57500:37:22.389 --> 00:37:28.639
a spell. For Samhain, it's always. And it means making57600:37:29.590 --> 00:37:35.250
choices with the planet in mind. That, to me, comes first.57700:37:36.269 --> 00:37:40.190
I remember Scott Cunningham has a book, I believe it's57800:37:40.349 --> 00:37:44.809
called Earth, Air, Fire, Water. And there was a passage57900:37:44.869 --> 00:37:47.230
in it that stuck with me. All these years it58000:37:47.250 --> 00:37:51.460
stuck with me. He was talking about recycling. in the58100:37:51.519 --> 00:37:54.820
midst of how we connect with nature when we do58200:37:54.920 --> 00:37:58.969
magic with the elements and the importance of recycling, the58300:37:59.030 --> 00:38:03.969
importance of reducing your carbon footprint. And he said, if58400:38:04.010 --> 00:38:06.789
you don't understand why I'm saying this, go back to58500:38:06.829 --> 00:38:10.369
the first page and start the book over. You're not58600:38:10.489 --> 00:38:17.869
getting the gist. And so when you're, doing magical things,58700:38:17.969 --> 00:38:21.599
living magically. It's in the flow of that energy with,58800:38:22.440 --> 00:38:26.840
whether you call it the goddess, Gaia, the universe. I58900:38:26.900 --> 00:38:30.519
tend to think of the universal spiritual energy that's the59000:38:30.599 --> 00:38:34.030
entire universe. And I think of the goddess energy more59100:38:34.170 --> 00:38:40.090
as this planet. But when you're doing spell work, you're59200:38:40.110 --> 00:38:43.909
sending things out to the universe, right? So It seems59300:38:43.989 --> 00:38:47.030
to me you'll have a much richer, more meaningful experience59400:38:47.070 --> 00:38:51.090
with that if you're always trying to be in tune59500:38:51.110 --> 00:38:53.570
with it. You don't have to be like searching it59600:38:53.650 --> 00:38:56.730
every second, but it's like I'm aware when the moon59700:38:56.769 --> 00:39:00.010
phases change. I'm aware when the sunlight changes or the59800:39:00.070 --> 00:39:04.789
seasons change. I can look at certain things outside, although59900:39:04.829 --> 00:39:07.969
climate change is really messing me up for who's to be.60000:39:08.719 --> 00:39:11.619
I could walk, if you put me asleep for six months,60100:39:12.159 --> 00:39:13.849
I could walk out in the yard and look at60200:39:13.929 --> 00:39:16.510
what was blooming and what animals were active. And I60300:39:16.550 --> 00:39:20.090
would know almost exactly where I was for the year.60400:39:20.769 --> 00:39:23.269
And so, like when we talk about the wheel of60500:39:23.289 --> 00:39:27.010
the year, for example, there are the eight Sabbaths that,60600:39:27.090 --> 00:39:29.769
you know, they get all the, that's on this Sabbath60700:39:29.789 --> 00:39:31.829
we do. this and on that Sabbath we do that.60800:39:32.010 --> 00:39:36.030
But I like to explain them more as there are60900:39:36.070 --> 00:39:39.739
eight slices of a pie, right? But the good stuff61000:39:39.840 --> 00:39:42.059
isn't the slice. The good stuff is the piece of61100:39:42.099 --> 00:39:47.199
pie between the slices. And so you take the meaning61200:39:47.239 --> 00:39:50.239
of that Sabbath and And carry it through until the61300:39:50.300 --> 00:39:53.650
next one. And let that inspire you. Like sink into it.61400:39:53.860 --> 00:39:57.000
You know, like we're coming up on the fall equinox.61500:39:57.960 --> 00:40:00.280
So sink into that until we get to Samhain. Even61600:40:00.320 --> 00:40:04.860
though like we all want to put our stuff out now. Sure.61700:40:05.639 --> 00:40:10.909
But each one has its own thing to savor. Like Lamas,61800:40:12.610 --> 00:40:15.329
nobody likes that holiday. It's a dumb holiday. It's August61900:40:15.389 --> 00:40:19.139
and we're tired of summer. But no. It's a celebration62000:40:19.179 --> 00:40:21.940
of the grain and the harvest. And bread was like62100:40:21.960 --> 00:40:24.980
the big deal. I joke that we have a bread holiday.62200:40:25.000 --> 00:40:27.780
That's something you guys don't have. But then I like62300:40:27.820 --> 00:40:29.260
to put out there, you know what else is made62400:40:29.320 --> 00:40:35.860
of grain? Beer. Oh, oh, brew some beer. Go test62500:40:35.929 --> 00:40:40.389
a microbrewery. Celebrate that time, you know, this fullness and62600:40:40.409 --> 00:40:45.800
this richness. I think that's what happens if you just62700:40:45.949 --> 00:40:49.309
look at social media. It's like, you know, today is62800:40:49.349 --> 00:40:51.269
the full moon and we do X, Y, and Z.62900:40:51.969 --> 00:40:54.590
Or today is Yule and we do X, Y, and Z.63000:40:54.630 --> 00:40:56.469
And if you're not doing it, you're not a real witch.63100:40:56.820 --> 00:41:00.860
That's the line that just always just makes me go, ugh,63200:41:01.280 --> 00:41:05.300
when I see posts that start out with real witches, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah.63300:41:06.670 --> 00:41:09.150
Well, you know, yeah. And it's like, you know, me63400:41:09.170 --> 00:41:13.730
coming from a Christian background and having majority Christian beliefs,63500:41:13.750 --> 00:41:17.190
you know, I believe that God's spirit hovers over and63600:41:17.230 --> 00:41:21.699
within all things, animal or otherwise. And so I always63700:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.840
find myself when I'm pulling leaves from trees or, you know,63800:41:24.920 --> 00:41:27.179
pulling a branch or, you know, picking a flower, I63900:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.460
ask those things first. Can I have this leaf? May64000:41:30.500 --> 00:41:32.820
I take that flower? May I, you know, have this branch?64100:41:32.860 --> 00:41:35.139
And sometimes, you know, it's all about feeling it. And64200:41:35.179 --> 00:41:37.769
sometimes you're going to know. And they're like, you know,64300:41:37.849 --> 00:41:42.530
and plants are very, I feel like plants are very generous.64400:41:43.150 --> 00:41:45.789
They're in most cases willing to give you a leaf,64500:41:46.250 --> 00:41:49.210
you know, but it's like, I recognize the fact that64600:41:49.230 --> 00:41:52.150
there is a spirituality in everything and a spirit lives64700:41:52.170 --> 00:41:55.659
within everything. And there's energy fields at play that we64800:41:56.239 --> 00:41:59.159
live among and within. And so I take the time64900:41:59.559 --> 00:42:01.019
when I'm at the ocean or at the water and65000:42:01.320 --> 00:42:03.769
I play with the water, you know, it's like, I65100:42:03.809 --> 00:42:07.489
talk to it. You know, it's another living thing. It65200:42:07.530 --> 00:42:09.980
may not be breathing quite like we're breathing or living65300:42:10.000 --> 00:42:13.960
the way we're living. But, you know, I do that,65400:42:14.000 --> 00:42:16.380
but there are people out there who have Christian beliefs65500:42:16.579 --> 00:42:20.239
and they'll be like, whoa, whoa, that is not how65600:42:20.340 --> 00:42:23.360
Christians should be acting around these things. You have authority.65700:42:23.389 --> 00:42:25.210
You should just pull whatever you want, do whatever you want.65800:42:25.289 --> 00:42:28.170
It's like, well, you know, again, it comes down to65900:42:28.190 --> 00:42:30.510
a belief. It's like, I like to show respect to66000:42:30.550 --> 00:42:33.010
nature because it was here before me. You know?66100:42:35.030 --> 00:42:37.510
We don't have a plant B. If we kill this planet,66200:42:37.610 --> 00:42:40.110
we die too. We are only as alive as the66300:42:40.150 --> 00:42:46.389
planet is alive. And that's like value number one. The66400:42:46.429 --> 00:42:50.659
planet is sacred. And the life force, like you're talking about,66500:42:51.099 --> 00:42:54.400
it does flow through plants. In the indigenous populations, they66600:42:54.440 --> 00:42:56.440
would say it also is in the rocks and the dirt.66700:42:57.659 --> 00:43:01.599
But there are tribes that their word for the trees66800:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.570
is the standing people. And there's an awareness that these66900:43:05.630 --> 00:43:10.070
things do have energy. They have spirit. And there's a67000:43:10.130 --> 00:43:13.329
great book by Suzanne Simard called Finding the Mother Tree.67100:43:13.349 --> 00:43:18.130
And it goes in depth about how plants actually do67200:43:18.210 --> 00:43:22.139
communicate through their root systems, through energy. They have a67300:43:22.179 --> 00:43:27.179
communication system, but it's so unlike human. Human nature is67400:43:27.199 --> 00:43:30.159
to just discount it. It's not there because I don't67500:43:30.219 --> 00:43:33.800
understand that it's not there. And animals are the same way.67600:43:33.880 --> 00:43:38.980
They have all sorts of communication. Horses are my thing,67700:43:39.019 --> 00:43:41.909
you know, and horses think, people think horses, oh, they67800:43:41.969 --> 00:43:44.309
rear and they snort and they buck and do all67900:43:44.349 --> 00:43:47.949
these things when they're telling us something. They're actually very quiet.68000:43:48.650 --> 00:43:50.769
It's not like in the movies where they're nickering every68100:43:50.809 --> 00:43:55.530
five seconds. They're actually quite quiet, but they'll talk with68200:43:55.900 --> 00:43:58.500
just a twitch of the mouth, a flick of the ear.68300:43:59.909 --> 00:44:03.510
I'd gaze somewhere. There's all this communication happening. I learned68400:44:03.550 --> 00:44:07.710
this when I was doing some research for my first book,68500:44:07.809 --> 00:44:10.630
which actually was about horses, The Elements of Horse Spirit,68600:44:10.650 --> 00:44:16.550
and went out to observe wild mustangs. And I had68700:44:16.570 --> 00:44:19.710
a guide that was explaining what was going on. But68800:44:20.269 --> 00:44:23.550
the stallion of the herd, they like to usher out68900:44:23.590 --> 00:44:27.320
the young males quickly. And he was ushering into, they69000:44:27.360 --> 00:44:30.059
call them bachelor groups that all the young males get69100:44:30.099 --> 00:44:32.619
stuck together because only one stallion gets to be in69200:44:32.659 --> 00:44:36.739
the herd. And he was moving one of the young69300:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.760
males into the play group. And, uh, the, the mother69400:44:41.519 --> 00:44:44.539
walked a few steps and she put her head up69500:44:44.739 --> 00:44:47.280
and she just stared at him and he stared back69600:44:47.360 --> 00:44:50.510
at her and it was almost like he sighed and went, okay.69700:44:51.630 --> 00:44:54.369
brought the and brought the colt back but the guide69800:44:54.409 --> 00:44:57.329
was explaining the the lead mare told him not now69900:44:58.289 --> 00:45:02.559
and the stallion message received but there was a whole70000:45:02.619 --> 00:45:06.059
communication that happened there that if you were just looking70100:45:06.099 --> 00:45:08.699
at these horses they're just horses walking around what's the70200:45:08.719 --> 00:45:13.469
big deal and um The thing that's humbling, and I70300:45:13.570 --> 00:45:17.150
wrote about this in Pagan Curiouser as well, and I70400:45:17.190 --> 00:45:20.159
believe the first book too, because it's really profound to me,70500:45:20.900 --> 00:45:27.079
but life only begets life. You can't create life in70600:45:27.099 --> 00:45:31.699
a vacuum, right? So when after the Big Bang, whatever70700:45:31.820 --> 00:45:35.380
energy went out, whatever energy plopped into our little planet's70800:45:35.440 --> 00:45:40.889
atmosphere and started those single-celled creatures where everything began, plant70900:45:41.010 --> 00:45:46.210
and animal, that initial spark of life sparked all the71000:45:46.269 --> 00:45:48.760
other lives. They branched off. They became other things. It71100:45:48.800 --> 00:45:54.380
became billions of years before they became different things. But71200:45:55.219 --> 00:45:58.139
we all carry that first spark in us because it71300:45:59.039 --> 00:46:02.750
only passes energy to energy. It doesn't begin new like71400:46:02.789 --> 00:46:06.949
in a fertilized egg. It's not new energy. It's energy71500:46:06.989 --> 00:46:10.800
being passed along. Right. So the same energy in me71600:46:10.860 --> 00:46:13.960
is the same energy that's in a beetle or in71700:46:14.159 --> 00:46:17.460
a rose. I happen to evolve this way. The beetle71800:46:17.480 --> 00:46:22.400
evolved that way. But my energy is no more superior71900:46:22.480 --> 00:46:26.340
to that. It's the same. We all began with that spark.72000:46:26.400 --> 00:46:29.030
So it's kind of cool. We all carry literally the72100:46:29.110 --> 00:46:33.070
life force of the universe. There's so much wonder from72200:46:33.130 --> 00:46:36.849
a pagan perspective about all of this, you know, versus72300:46:36.929 --> 00:46:40.030
the God created this, and God created that, and there72400:46:40.050 --> 00:46:42.789
are Adam and Eve, and they were the only people72500:46:42.869 --> 00:46:45.769
on earth until Cain slew Abel, and he went off72600:46:45.829 --> 00:46:49.150
and married into another tribe. We won't talk about that. Like,72700:46:49.429 --> 00:46:52.190
what other tribe? Wait a minute. It says there were72800:46:52.210 --> 00:46:58.440
only two people. You mean there were others? So, anyway,72900:46:58.460 --> 00:47:00.460
I got off on another tangent. So I'm going to73000:47:00.480 --> 00:47:01.940
be quiet while you ask the question.73100:47:04.760 --> 00:47:07.960
Well, I think that it's a good point to make though.73200:47:08.000 --> 00:47:12.440
I mean, even if you're, you're not Christian or many73300:47:12.480 --> 00:47:19.440
Christians that don't buy into the, the whole, whole thing, uh,73400:47:19.679 --> 00:47:24.039
or think the Bible is a hundred percent truth. Um,73500:47:25.900 --> 00:47:31.630
everybody should be questioning everything. Um, and yeah, it fascinates73600:47:31.670 --> 00:47:34.429
me that you are also an evolutionist on top of73700:47:34.489 --> 00:47:41.869
being a pagan worshiper. But since we are getting close to,73800:47:42.030 --> 00:47:45.369
to the end here, I wanted to ask you if73900:47:45.469 --> 00:47:49.400
readers could take one thing away from your book or74000:47:49.579 --> 00:47:51.920
even this conversation we've had today, what would it be?74100:47:56.639 --> 00:48:01.260
To give yourself permission to, To live joyfully and fully74200:48:01.400 --> 00:48:03.719
as your own true genuine self.74300:48:07.340 --> 00:48:08.480
In congruence with the.74400:48:08.429 --> 00:48:12.429
Planet and all the life on it. That really is74500:48:12.489 --> 00:48:15.590
a pagan life, I believe, in a nutshell. The magic74600:48:15.670 --> 00:48:19.090
is all fun and the magic is meaningful and the74700:48:19.130 --> 00:48:21.789
magic is good, but that's not where life is at.74800:48:22.300 --> 00:48:26.480
Life is living in congruence with the energies that you74900:48:26.519 --> 00:48:29.659
make magic with with the energies that bring life with75000:48:29.699 --> 00:48:34.599
the planet itself so you know when i um wonder75100:48:34.619 --> 00:48:36.719
if i'm doing something right i'll say what would you75200:48:36.739 --> 00:48:40.469
do what would gaia do oh that's that's what would75300:48:40.510 --> 00:48:46.170
happen you know so i think it's it's giving yourself75400:48:46.289 --> 00:48:51.010
permission not to live under the um the chains of75500:48:51.230 --> 00:48:53.590
the shoulds i should do this i should do that75600:48:53.610 --> 00:48:55.559
i mean There are things we have to do. We75700:48:55.599 --> 00:48:58.000
have to pay the bills. You know, we got to75800:49:00.280 --> 00:49:02.610
follow the traffic laws. There are things that we do75900:49:02.869 --> 00:49:06.429
need to do to function in the world. But when76000:49:06.469 --> 00:49:10.690
you just imagine stepping off the narrow path and walking76100:49:10.769 --> 00:49:12.730
out into the meadow and you can see the whole76200:49:12.789 --> 00:49:17.050
thing at 360 degrees, you can go anywhere here. You76300:49:17.070 --> 00:49:18.550
want to be in the shade, be in the shade.76400:49:18.570 --> 00:49:19.889
You want to be in the sun, be in the sun.76500:49:19.960 --> 00:49:22.320
You want to stare at this ladybug for an hour,76600:49:22.420 --> 00:49:25.599
do it. I think the fascination and connection to the76700:49:25.659 --> 00:49:29.659
planet at a spiritual level is really the heart of76800:49:29.699 --> 00:49:30.420
the pagan life.76900:49:32.829 --> 00:49:37.530
Well, now, Justin and I are both believers that we77000:49:37.550 --> 00:49:40.230
never stop learning. No matter how old we get, no77100:49:40.269 --> 00:49:42.510
matter how much time we have on this earth, we77200:49:42.590 --> 00:49:45.449
never stop learning. So a question I have for you77300:49:45.510 --> 00:49:49.039
is what's something that you're still exploring yourself, both either77400:49:49.099 --> 00:49:50.739
spiritually or otherwise?77500:49:50.760 --> 00:49:58.630
Oh, my. So many things. The one where I realized,77600:49:59.469 --> 00:50:01.909
if only I knew when I was 14 what I77700:50:01.949 --> 00:50:04.949
know now, I wish I had taken more math and77800:50:05.030 --> 00:50:08.969
science because... as I was writing these books, stumbled into77900:50:09.010 --> 00:50:12.510
the field of quantum mechanics and quantum physics. And there78000:50:12.590 --> 00:50:15.500
are these courses you can take through Amazon Prime called78100:50:15.519 --> 00:50:19.420
the great courses that are college level courses. And like,78200:50:19.440 --> 00:50:22.860
you know, 30, 40 episodes. Now I have the benefit78300:50:23.000 --> 00:50:26.679
of my husband who is an engineer and I'll hit pause.78400:50:26.940 --> 00:50:30.159
What does that mean? I have no idea what any78500:50:30.179 --> 00:50:33.929
of that meant, but I saw early on the parallels78600:50:33.949 --> 00:50:37.300
between between magical things and things in quantum mechanics and78700:50:37.340 --> 00:50:42.639
quantum physics. And that field is something, if I had78800:50:42.679 --> 00:50:46.440
the scientific and mathematical background, I could think into that.78900:50:47.019 --> 00:50:52.530
The world at the quantum level, here's one. We know79000:50:52.550 --> 00:50:56.150
that dark matter and dark energy are out there. But79100:50:56.190 --> 00:50:59.750
the scientific community, I write about this too, they mostly79200:50:59.769 --> 00:51:02.110
will just admit they are aware that it's there. They79300:51:02.150 --> 00:51:04.170
don't know why. They don't really know what it is.79400:51:04.699 --> 00:51:07.760
They know at certain times they can see it has79500:51:07.820 --> 00:51:11.699
gravitational pull. It is there, but they don't know what.79600:51:11.880 --> 00:51:14.380
And it's the bulk of the universe is made up.79700:51:14.400 --> 00:51:20.639
It's not just empty. It's there. But the dark energy79800:51:21.139 --> 00:51:24.110
doesn't stop at the atmosphere. It goes into the planet.79900:51:24.409 --> 00:51:29.349
It's in us. And I backed this up with documentation80000:51:29.409 --> 00:51:33.860
from a NASA website. When you get down to our cells,80100:51:34.219 --> 00:51:38.679
there's space between the atoms. It's dark energy. Between the80200:51:38.800 --> 00:51:42.360
atoms at that level, this just blows my mind. This80300:51:42.440 --> 00:51:44.960
to me is what makes magic possible. If the dark80400:51:45.079 --> 00:51:50.869
energy moves between things and surfaces, well, of course, then80500:51:50.889 --> 00:51:53.190
it works. When you set your magical intention out, it's80600:51:53.210 --> 00:51:57.849
like a ripple in a pond. But that is so80700:51:57.929 --> 00:52:01.110
fascinating to me. Particles acting like waves because somebody was80800:52:01.170 --> 00:52:06.429
watching like, What? So that's, that's the one thing. Um,80900:52:07.880 --> 00:52:10.480
I'm always, like you said, always still learning to row81000:52:11.380 --> 00:52:13.679
and always still learning new things with.81100:52:13.599 --> 00:52:14.340
Dirt right now.81200:52:14.380 --> 00:52:20.769
My obsession is succulents. I think they're very magical, very magical. So, um,81300:52:21.349 --> 00:52:28.059
and also just, uh, um, I want to make exploration81400:52:28.099 --> 00:52:31.699
of these ideas safe for people who don't feel safe81500:52:32.619 --> 00:52:35.849
exploring it. It's, it's why it doesn't say learn how81600:52:35.869 --> 00:52:38.210
to be a witch in the title. Cause that's all81700:52:38.309 --> 00:52:41.570
in there. You'll, you know, it little by little, we81800:52:41.610 --> 00:52:44.710
desensitize to that word as we go on books. And81900:52:45.130 --> 00:52:47.760
some people will criticize that and say, well, if you82000:52:47.800 --> 00:52:49.559
don't just don't come right out and say you're a witch,82100:52:50.260 --> 00:52:52.739
that's not what real witches do. And I'll say, well,82200:52:53.969 --> 00:52:56.380
my purpose here isn't to prove that I'm a witch.82300:52:57.159 --> 00:53:00.079
My purpose here is to invite people in to find82400:53:00.179 --> 00:53:03.340
out for themselves what they are and what they believe,82500:53:03.380 --> 00:53:05.619
what do they want to do, but to discover that82600:53:06.480 --> 00:53:08.780
all of this stuff isn't what they were led to82700:53:08.820 --> 00:53:14.239
believe it is, you know, and I know that, but82800:53:14.300 --> 00:53:15.699
I know you asked me for one thing and I82900:53:15.719 --> 00:53:17.699
gave you four.83000:53:20.219 --> 00:53:26.389
I mean, We're all trying to figure it all out. So, yeah,83100:53:26.409 --> 00:53:30.989
I don't mind that you answered more than one thing83200:53:31.030 --> 00:53:35.409
you still want to throw in. Since we are coming83300:53:35.449 --> 00:53:37.000
to the end, I did want to give you the83400:53:37.019 --> 00:53:39.460
chance to tell everybody where they can find you, find83500:53:39.500 --> 00:53:41.639
the book, find your work. The mic's all yours.83600:53:42.539 --> 00:53:48.400
Well, here it is. That's what it looks like. There's83700:53:48.440 --> 00:53:52.289
the first one. So they're a companion. I have my83800:53:52.309 --> 00:54:03.119
own website, deborahdeangelo.com, that I need to update. I'm on threads, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn.83900:54:03.760 --> 00:54:08.940
On Instagram and Facebook, if you look for Garden Variety Pagan,84000:54:08.960 --> 00:54:12.219
that's where I am. I'm under my own name in84100:54:12.260 --> 00:54:18.920
the other places. My books are at luellen.com. Amazon.com and84200:54:19.019 --> 00:54:22.300
often where if you find a metaphysical shop that sells84300:54:22.320 --> 00:54:25.610
Llewellyn books, I'll be in that section if they have it.84400:54:26.199 --> 00:54:28.840
The thing is, I've been into some shops and my84500:54:28.880 --> 00:54:31.219
book is sort of, they don't know what to do84600:54:31.239 --> 00:54:34.010
with it really because it's the witchcraft books that sell.84700:54:34.090 --> 00:54:37.119
Everybody wants to come in. They want to learn witchcraft84800:54:37.139 --> 00:54:39.670
and five easy lessons so they can go hex the neighbor.84900:54:41.650 --> 00:54:45.079
This one is about being whole in your own body85000:54:45.179 --> 00:54:48.699
and learning about your body's magical. Your mind is magical.85100:54:49.179 --> 00:54:54.639
You're you're you're, you have a spiritual connection to the universe.85200:54:54.880 --> 00:54:57.400
And that's, that's not what I wanted. I wanted to85300:54:57.440 --> 00:55:01.260
hex the neighbor. So, but that's where you find them.85400:55:01.820 --> 00:55:02.949
Instant gratification.85500:55:03.030 --> 00:55:05.489
That's what society is right now. Absolutely.85600:55:05.510 --> 00:55:06.170
Yeah.85700:55:08.070 --> 00:55:10.230
All right, Debra. Well, thank you so much for joining85800:55:10.269 --> 00:55:13.869
us here on Paratrooth. It's been great having a conversation85900:55:13.889 --> 00:55:14.250
with you.86000:55:15.670 --> 00:55:16.110
Wonderful.86100:55:17.809 --> 00:55:20.929
All right, everybody. If you... Oh, I started in the86200:55:20.949 --> 00:55:25.400
wrong place. We asked our Parachute community, if you were86300:55:25.440 --> 00:55:29.619
exploring pagan spirituality, what would interest you the most? Well,86400:55:29.619 --> 00:55:32.920
33% of you said connecting with nature. 1% of you86500:55:32.940 --> 00:55:36.900
said tarot and divination. 25% said magic and ritual. 8%86600:55:40.469 --> 00:55:45.269
had said plant and animal spirituality, and 33% said all86700:55:45.289 --> 00:55:49.750
of it. Full umbrella. If tonight's show has changed your86800:55:49.809 --> 00:55:52.909
mind about anything, please let us know. Reach out on86900:55:52.929 --> 00:55:56.469
social media, or even go to our website and send87000:55:56.510 --> 00:55:59.070
us a message, or even better, leave us a voice message.87100:55:59.130 --> 00:56:01.610
We'd love to hear your voice, and if you're willing,87200:56:01.719 --> 00:56:04.800
we'd love to play it here on the air. You87300:56:04.820 --> 00:56:07.940
can also email us at paratroothradio at email dot com.87400:56:08.820 --> 00:56:11.449
That's also a fun place to do that. So if87500:56:11.489 --> 00:56:14.900
you were enjoying tonight's conversation and want even more prayer truth, well,87600:56:15.039 --> 00:56:17.500
there's another side to the show waiting for you. Our87700:56:17.539 --> 00:56:21.500
supporters club members get access to exclusive bonus episodes you87800:56:21.559 --> 00:56:24.780
won't hear on the regular feed. While your support helps87900:56:24.900 --> 00:56:28.199
us continue bringing these conversations to you, and if you88000:56:28.300 --> 00:56:30.869
want to keep the discussion going after tonight's show, be88100:56:30.909 --> 00:56:33.449
sure to join us in our prayer truthers community where88200:56:33.489 --> 00:56:38.059
we can talk about paranormal experiences, upcoming topics, polls, episodes,88300:56:38.099 --> 00:56:42.760
and everything that exists just beyond what we think we understand.88400:56:43.320 --> 00:56:46.639
So come, support the show, become a part of our88500:56:46.699 --> 00:56:51.489
little network, and become part of our family. So until88600:56:51.530 --> 00:56:53.929
next week where you'll find us same time, same channel,88700:56:54.250 --> 00:56:54.929
my name is Eric.88800:56:55.650 --> 00:56:56.349
And I'm Justin.88900:56:57.010 --> 00:56:57.309
Peace.89000:56:57.309 --> 00:57:15.230
© transcript Emily Beynon
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